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[BGwhite]

It isn't a level playing field - so therefore corrupt authorities everywhere punish someone just to make it look like it is and makes themselves look like decent people while they're at it. If that pleases their simple little minds then so be it but I wonder if they can actually make themselves look any smaller than they are right now.

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[rab_rant]

Racist abuse is a criminal offence is it not?
Beyond a reasonable doubt is not the same as on the balance of probability

When it comes to referring to the ethnicity of another person we seem to be standing on shifting sands since what is acceptable seems to change with the decades.

To be politically correct you have to be on your toes so as not to put a foot wrong. In my lifetime when referring to the ethnicity of someone with a different skin colour from myself it could have been black, or coloured, or Afro American or depending on the country or continent they came from Jamaican, Somali, African.

In the comedy shows of the 70's like Alf Garnet or corporal Jones from Dad's Army the names used to refer to people who were not white skinned would not be acceptable today... but oh how we laughed back then.

When you look at the scientific literature which deals with the classification and taxonomy of the different races it has also evolved and changed over the years.

Carleton S. Coon the anthropologist with his book "The origin of the races" published in 1962 has a lot to answer for. He proposed the world population can be divided into 4 major races, namely white/Caucasian, Mongoloid/Asian, Negroid/Black, and Australoid.

The Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s and changing social attitudes challenged racial theories like Coon's that had been used by segregationists to justify discrimination and depriving people of civil rights.

The list of ethnic slurs is a veritable minefield and the length and scope of the list is so formidable that it would be better to keep our mouths shut and never talk at all.

The tongue is a small thing, but what enormous damage it can do James 3:5

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs

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[Sara]

Maybe I'm naive, but I would've sat Kiko and Leko together and just had them talk the incident through together and clear it up immediately. If there was any misunderstanding/offence caused then why not sort it out as men?

This sounds good in principle, but ignores the disempowerment experienced when you have been abused.

I'm going through a case of harassment and abuse at the moment. The last thing I want to do is to sit down and talk it through with my abuser, I want it dealt with by the police, and I don't want them near me again. I am grateful that that is what is happening.

Part of the social contract of living in a civilised society is that we endeavour to protect people from being mistreated, especially on the basis of simply being who they are.

The mechanisms for doing so in incidents like this appear deeply flawed, but that shouldn't take away from what the Charlton players will have experienced if they think they were being racially abused simply for being black and playing football. It is right that that should be taken seriously, and should be addressed in a way that gives them confidence that the system will protect them.

Our instinct is to protect Kiko, to want to see him as innocent, and to be outraged at the timescale and the manner of the investigation. Whilst understandable, I think this reaction might be mitigated if we were also thinking it through from the viewpoint of the Charlton players. Maybe this is easier to do if you have been on the receiving end of abuse yourself.

[Irish Ian]

Justice is a blunt instrument sadly.

Im waiting for the FA to publish before weighing in here, apart from to say a few things about the timeline.

1 September. Allegation is made and referred to FA.
2. November. After investigation charges are made. Leeds acknowledge this.
3. November. Kiko / Leeds ask for time to respond. At this point a hearing could have been held but more time was granted.
4. Hearing is held and after deliberation the ban is issued.

No matter when the ban would have been issued would it NOT have fed into an anti Leeds dialogue.

Also Johnathan Leko has suffered a season ending injury so for all those wanting to put him in stocks in front sfront of the Geldard will have to go dissappointed.

[Norm]

Anyone mention kangaroos?

Disgraceful and in itself racist - probably convicted because he IS white and the guy making the accusation is black.

[Irish Ian]

This sounds good in principle, but ignores the disempowerment experienced when you have been abused.

I'm going through a case of harassment and abuse at the moment. The last thing I want to do is to sit down and talk it through with my abuser, I want it dealt with by the police, and I don't want them near me again. I am grateful that that is what is happening.

Part of the social contract of living in a civilised society is that we endeavour to protect people from being mistreated, especially on the basis of simply being who they are.

The mechanisms for doing so in incidents like this appear deeply flawed, but that shouldn't take away from what the Charlton players will have experienced if they think they were being racially abused simply for being black and playing football. It is right that that should be taken seriously, and should be addressed in a way that gives them confidence that the system will protect them.

Our instinct is to protect Kiko, to want to see him as innocent, and to be outraged at the timescale and the manner of the investigation. Whilst understandable, I think this reaction might be mitigated if we were also thinking it through from the viewpoint of the Charlton players. Maybe this is easier to do if you have been on the receiving end of abuse yourself.

Sorry to hear of your troubles Sara but they are hardly comparable?

[1964white]

You can only say that though, because, as a white person in this country, the colour of your skin hasn't adversely affected the way people see you and treat you.

It isn't a level playing field.

Believe me I'm not racist, I treat everybody as I find them whatever creed or colour people are!

I was chatting with mates when we signed Augustin & I commented "I love black players as they seem to have an acceleration of pace such as Yeboah, Beckford, Gradel & dear Albert from the 60's" one of my friends said to me "you can't say that" even though I was discussing players that I admire & have plenty of affection for with lots of great memories of course!

Slip of the tongue I suppose

I had Asian friends when being brought up in the back streets of Leeds. I have one now in Gurj you all know, I give him a big hug when I see him at games, lovely fella

[rab_rant]

Anyone mention kangaroos?

Disgraceful and in itself racist - probably convicted because he IS white and the guy making the accusation is black.

kangaroo court

noun

an unofficial court held by a group of people in order to try someone regarded, especially without good evidence, as guilty of a crime or misdemeanour.



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[Irish Ian]

When it comes to referring to the ethnicity of another person we seem to be standing on shifting sands since what is acceptable seems to change with the decades.

To be politically correct you have to be on your toes so as not to put a foot wrong. In my lifetime when referring to the ethnicity of someone with a different skin colour from myself it could have been black, or coloured, or Afro American or depending on the country or continent they came from Jamaican, Somali, African.

In the comedy shows of the 70's like Alf Garnet or corporal Jones from Dad's Army the names used to refer to people who were not white skinned would not be acceptable today... but oh how we laughed back then.

When you look at the scientific literature which deals with the classification and taxonomy of the different races it has also evolved and changed over the years.

Carleton S. Coon the anthropologist with his book "The origin of the races" published in 1962 has a lot to answer for. He proposed the world population can be divided into 4 major races, namely white/Caucasian, Mongoloid/Asian, Negroid/Black, and Australoid.

The Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s and changing social attitudes challenged racial theories like Coon's that had been used by segregationists to justify discrimination and depriving people of civil rights.

The list of ethnic slurs is a veritable minefield and the length and scope of the list is so formidable that it would be better to keep our mouths shut and never talk at all.

The tongue is a small thing, but what enormous damage it can do James 3:5

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs

Sent from my SM-G903F using Tapatalk

Good post.

Thing is if you ever watch any movies featuring black inner city kids and the words they use for each other would make your hair curl. If Leko heard those words from those of the same ethnicity I do wonder his response.
Context us everything.

Job 34. 3 is interesting.

 For the ear tests words Just as the tongue tastes food.

[Irish Ian]

Anyone mention kangaroos?

Disgraceful and in itself racist - probably convicted because he IS white and the guy making the accusation is black.

Harry hasnt been on yet.

[1964white]

Anyone mention kangaroos?

Disgraceful and in itself racist - probably convicted because he IS white and the guy making the accusation is black.

Kiko is not white though, he has a coloured complexion due to where he was born & lived in a warm climate

A typical Spanish appearance!

[White Riot]

Justice is a blunt instrument sadly.

Im waiting for the FA to publish before weighing in here, apart from to say a few things about the timeline.

1 September. Allegation is made and referred to FA.
2. November. After investigation charges are made. Leeds acknowledge this.
3. November. Kiko / Leeds ask for time to respond. At this point a hearing could have been held but more time was granted.
4. Hearing is held and after deliberation the ban is issued.

No matter when the ban would have been issued would it NOT have fed into an anti Leeds dialogue.

Also Johnathan Leko has suffered a season ending injury so for all those wanting to put him in stocks in front sfront of the Geldard will have to go dissappointed.

Looke like my Voodoo doll does work after all then

[White Riot]

Kiko is not white though, he has a coloured complexion due to where he was born & lived in a warm climate

A typical Spanish appearance!

Go back quite a few years 64 and we'd be calling Kiko and Pablo "Manuel" and quoting Fawlty Towers lines, would Kikio wanna take me to the High Court if I shouted "Ole@ when he makes a good save?

[Sara]

Believe me I'm not racist, I treat everybody as I find them whatever creed or colour people are!

I do believe you, and I had no intention to imply otherwise.

My point was that white and black people have a very different experience of growing up and living in this country. If you are black, the colour of your skin will affect your chances and your treatment in so many ways.

This simply isn't the case if you are white, so as white people we don't tend to see skin colour as such a big issue; because it isn't, for us.

[hector]

A typical Spanish appearance!

Are you sterotyping in a racial way '64??

See................ you need to be very careful in this overtly PC world...

[weasel]

I wasn't defending the process, just highlighting why I think it's there.

The flipside to what you say is what on earth motive would two Charlton players have for wanting the Leeds goalie banned? Seems too random to attribute it to a malicious accusation.

The most likely explanation is a genuine misunderstanding imo.

For me I feel it is more just something said in the heat of the moment rather than Kiko actually being racist. Possibly something along the lines of 'get this black c*nt away from me' at a corner when Kiko would have wanted someone to be in between himself and Leko so that he could come and claim/flap at corner. Not the nicest thing to say but in the same context as saying 'get that lanky tw*t away from me,' or 'get that welsh f*ckwit picked up.'

Now obviously it isn't pleasant terminology but equally not the same as being overtly racist. If you have a couple of seconds to try to get someone to mark someone you have to describe them quickly, it is hardly like the Charlton players are instantly known such as if you were playing Liverpool you could shout, 'Someone pick up Salah,'

Until more details come out though it is not really for us to judge. What does stink though is the ridiculous timing of the announcement of the ban. To do it late on a Friday is just plain wrong. They should have waited till Monday morning.

I like the club's statement. I feel they have got it right in condoning racism but supporting Kiko. I am just glad that Kiko had his 3 clean sheets before this ban so that all the ridiculous nonsense people were spouting about how they wanted him banned has been put to bed. I also feel that the authorities and Leeds have come up with a ban that they both feel was acceptable. Given that if Messlier plays 10 matches it supposedly triggers a clause in his contract that we are obliged to buy him it now means that if he plays the 8 matches then he will have played 9 matches (if the Arsenal game counts) and then the club have it in their power as to whether he plays the all important 10th match.

At the time of the incident Charlton were in or around the play-off places - we were a direct competitor for those places. Certainly additional motivation to stick to the story even if you knew it was more just an insulting comment rather than true racism. Once it then keeps rumbling on you can't really back down.

[Sara]

Sorry to hear of your troubles Sara but they are hardly comparable?

Thanks, Ian. In a way they are. I think being harassed because of my sex gives me some empathy with what it might feel like to be harassed because of your race.

As I was saying to 64, it's harder to grasp the impact of these things if you haven't been on the receiving end of them. The various comments along the lines of, you can't say anything these days, indicate a lack of understanding imo.

[White Riot]

This sounds good in principle, but ignores the disempowerment experienced when you have been abused.

I'm going through a case of harassment and abuse at the moment. The last thing I want to do is to sit down and talk it through with my abuser, I want it dealt with by the police, and I don't want them near me again. I am grateful that that is what is happening.

Part of the social contract of living in a civilised society is that we endeavour to protect people from being mistreated, especially on the basis of simply being who they are.

The mechanisms for doing so in incidents like this appear deeply flawed, but that shouldn't take away from what the Charlton players will have experienced if they think they were being racially abused simply for being black and playing football. It is right that that should be taken seriously, and should be addressed in a way that gives them confidence that the system will protect them.

Our instinct is to protect Kiko, to want to see him as innocent, and to be outraged at the timescale and the manner of the investigation. Whilst understandable, I think this reaction might be mitigated if we were also thinking it through from the viewpoint of the Charlton players. Maybe this is easier to do if you have been on the receiving end of abuse yourself.

Hi Sara,

Some very good points you make here. As I said, I'm more old school and naive in my solutions. But do take your point that if you're on the receiving end you're probably feeling hurt, fragile and defensive and that's when you need some detachment from the offender.

I'm really sorry that you're the victime of abuse and harassment. I always try to draw a line of hwo far I'll go with another person and try not to upset them, if its necessary I'll always apologise whether I'm right or wrong, but just perfer to control my own actions in the first place and be careful not to upset others at all.

Having said all that, if you're looking for protection and justice you would hope that you'll get that from a professional, unbiased and capable authority/advocate/arbitrator. Does me anyone out there believe the FA/EFL are professional, unbiased and capable of managing an incident like this and ensuring justice? We're talking about Shaun Harvey and the gang here

[White Riot]

Thanks, Ian. In a way they are. I think being harassed because of my sex gives me some empathy with what it might feel like to be harassed because of your race.

As I was saying to 64, it's harder to grasp the impact of these things if you haven't been on the receiving end of them. The various comments along the lines of, you can't say anything these days, indicate a lack of understanding imo.

Gotta say I agree with you here Sara and diagree with Ian. Its just a different form of discrimination, not nice at all and you've got a real insight into how it feels when you're on the shitty end of the stick.

[Sara]

For me I feel it is more just something said in the heat of the moment rather than Kiko actually being racist. Possibly something along the lines of 'get this black c*nt away from me' at a corner when Kiko would have wanted someone to be in between himself and Leko so that he could come and claim/flap at corner. Not the nicest thing to say but in the same context as saying 'get that lanky tw*t away from me,' or 'get that welsh f*ckwit picked up.'

Now obviously it isn't pleasant terminology but equally not the same as being overtly racist. If you have a couple of seconds to try to get someone to mark someone you have to describe them quickly, it is hardly like the Charlton players are instantly known such as if you were playing Liverpool you could shout, 'Someone pick up Salah,'

I expect that is most likely the case, or the comment was lost in translation. That wouldn't lessen the impact on the player at the time though.

Totally agree re the timing.