Stoke City v Leeds Utd - Post match discussion

[60sUnited]

I think squad rotation is OK if you have a squad with equal ability....we've found out that we don't have that luxury and if we don't play our best 11 we are seemingly in trouble.

[DDB220]

Agree, Paul. A bit off the cuff for me there as emotions were running high. I don’t mind the Gruev and Anthony usage, in fact welcome it. But some of the other starts were surprising for me. Jimmy deserved another start and he and Anthony have shown to work really well with one another (so why not try those two as starters while giving James the rest and opportunity to be the glorious super sub we know he is).

I felt Shacks should’ve been on for Gray last game. And so honestly couldn’t fathom him starting this game, let alone going the full 90. Can’t help but have a Lewis Cook-level of concern over Archie’s usage

And Farke’s substitutions are a growing pet-peeve. He’s only gotten his subs right once from the games I’ve seen (Norwich). Thought Kamara should’ve been brought on for Gruev around the 55 minute mark, and Gnonto the same (since he got the start). Gnonto looked gassed at 60 (so why keep him on for another 8 or so minutes?).

Obvious hindsight, but Stoke wasn’t the right team to experiment with the starting lineup as much as he did.

Ultimately, lots of questionable performances out there today which probably has Farke wondering who, with the exception of Rutter, Struijk, Rodon, Ampadu, and Jimmy as to who he can truly trust. Unless Shacks is injured, he is a must start for me next match over Gray. Otherwise, my questions for the manager might have even more relevance…

Shacks is not a better RB than Gray. I can assure you he would have struggled against that Stoke winger.

Lots of posts over team selection and asking why did he rest players. It wasn’t that long ago that a number of posters were saying X looks leggy and needs a rest.

Whilst I am as disappointed with the result as anyone else I view the game in isolation unless a pattern emerges.

I have kept my powder dry on DF since his appointment - He is doing OK.

Need to get over this result quickly.

[1964white]

I think squad rotation is OK if you have a squad with equal ability....we've found out that we don't have that luxury and if we don't play our best 11 we are seemingly in trouble.

Same as last season, once we lost Adams & Rodrigo to injury, we were helpless, in the end the lack of quality back-up relegated us.

[Kennyb41]

Well, that there is a huge wake up call and lesson learned about how light our squad still is in quality and depth.

To me that game was near perfect to introduce Anthony and Gruev to starting and see what they can offer, neither of them ripped up trees.

Willy we already know about, but even he had a level of disinterest about him.

That team should've been good enough to beat a struggling Stoke, it was far from it, with hardly any chances created from the starting 11.

I was quite happy to see the line-up pre kick off and enthused to see how they performed, i don't want to see it again.

We are a very 'plain' side, with, in the main, very 'plain' Championship players.

Yes, we've got some clean sheets to rave about, and our goals conceded is down, but at what cost to our attacking strength/s ?

We need to make our minds up what we want.

That wonderful thing 'hindsight' - Would i choose that team again if i had the chance v Stoke all over again - No.

The only 'highlight' i saw was that we seemed to step up a gear with the 3 subs, but that's got to be expected with 3 subs.

Our squad is still v weak, not bottom of the table weak, but promotion weak, very promotion weak.

Only DF can know how good the likes of Gruev are in their training sessions, it was his first start, so he's bound to be nervous to impress/not make a mistake, i didn't really see enough of anything good or bad to pass judgement yet.

The team seemed flat, the performance was flat, he needs to pick it apart individually, and start again.

[1964white]

Shacks is not a better RB than Gray. I can assure you he would have struggled against that Stoke winger.

Lots of posts over team selection and asking why did he rest players. It wasn’t that long ago that a number of posters were saying X looks leggy and needs a rest.

Whilst I am as disappointed with the result as anyone else I view the game in isolation unless a pattern emerges.

I have kept my powder dry on DF since his appointment - He is doing OK.

Need to get over this result quickly.

So we have two back-up right backs in Ayling & Shackleton not good enough to cope with championship wingers

[Kennyb41]

I think squad rotation is OK if you have a squad with equal ability....we've found out that we don't have that luxury and if we don't play our best 11 we are seemingly in trouble.

100% this ^

[DDB220]

Exactly.

If you scratched below the surface and did a bit of research then Farke had plenty of concerns raised even by Norwich fans.

Take For me none of those concerns have been eased in his time here.

People took to him because he spoke well and fans wanted someone to believe in after a difficult summer understandably.

But on the pitch it's been questionable at best reflected by the fact the talk is about how well Rutter has done or Ampadu or Rodon etc.

Very little talk about how well Farke has done tactically.

Compare that to Bielsa in the Championship

You can find fans at any club who moan about their manager regardless of how well the club is doing.
For me Farke is doing OK - nothing more and nothing less.
I always expected us to be in the top 6 so he hasn’t under achieved nor has he over achieved.

[lufc1304]

Shacks is not a better RB than Gray. I can assure you he would have struggled against that Stoke winger.

Lots of posts over team selection and asking why did he rest players. It wasn’t that long ago that a number of posters were saying X looks leggy and needs a rest.

Whilst I am as disappointed with the result as anyone else I view the game in isolation unless a pattern emerges.

I have kept my powder dry on DF since his appointment - He is doing OK.

Need to get over this result quickly.

Good post. DF knows it's a long season and he will have to rotate at times and, because of all the upheaval over the summer and not knowing who was going to be available to him, he's having to almost trial rotation during games. That is far from ideal, and it certainly didn't work last night. Poor performance and a poor result, but if it gives DF some more clarity around what his options are, then it may not necessarily being a bad thing in the long run. That said, the quicker Spence is available and Gray moves back into rotation with Kamara in midfield, the better.

[DDB220]

So we have two back-up right backs in Ayling & Shackleton not good enough to cope with championship wingers

Archie did ok. He lost his player a few times but other than the free header the winger (whose name escapes) me didn’t threaten that much. Most of their threat came down the other side. That RB on loan from Liverpool - Heover, had a great game. Had Anthony in his pocket and gave Byram a torrid evening.

There is no doubt the inclusion of Gruev and Anthony unbalanced the team.

[Jaydog]

The invisible Man typed that

If only I was I could get on the pitch and take the ball off Bamford, slap him twice and kick him up the arse.

[Kennyb41]

Exactly.

If you scratched below the surface and did a bit of research then Farke had plenty of concerns raised even by Norwich fans.

For me none of those concerns have been eased in his time here.

People took to him because he spoke well and fans wanted someone to believe in after a difficult summer understandably.

But on the pitch it's been questionable at best reflected by the fact the talk is about how well Rutter has done or Ampadu or Rodon etc.

Very little talk about how well Farke has done tactically.

Compare that to Bielsa in the Championship

Please don't tell me you're now on a mission to find another Bert, ffs.

Well done lad

Kin braindead

But i should be glad your eyes are now wide open



Have we now gone full circle ?

[AcrossThePondAsh]

Good post. DF knows it's a long season and he will have to rotate at times and, because of all the upheaval over the summer and not knowing who was going to be available to him, he's having to almost trial rotation during games. That is far from ideal, and it certainly didn't work last night. Poor performance and a poor result, but if it gives DF some more clarity around what his options are, then it may not necessarily being a bad thing in the long run. That said, the quicker Spence is available and Gray moves back into rotation with Kamara in midfield, the better.

I think Paul may have touched on this early in the thread as well, but rotating the players to know what he has at his disposal could be invaluable down the line especially in terms of the January window and that final fourth of the season when the wheels will fall off for some teams who lack quality depth or have overplayed certain line-ups. The key is that it is a lesson learned so that some positives come from the loss. Say what you may about DF's tactics, subs, etc., but he doesn't strike me as the kind of manager to not make the most of a bad situation if he can--he does seem to put in the work.

[Kennyb41]

Archie did ok. He lost his player a few times but other than the free header the winger (whose name escapes) me didn’t threaten that much. Most of their threat came down the other side. That RB on loan from Liverpool - Heover, had a great game. Had Anthony in his pocket and gave Byram a torrid evening.

There is no doubt the inclusion of Gruev and Anthony unbalanced the team.

Yeah, i hadn't thought of this, and it's probably right, sometimes give credit where credit's due, this lad did have a good game and was virtually untroubled by Byram and Anthony down that side.

We've gotta take it on the chin, re group, and go again.

If ever there was a game to show the Yanks our need to strengthen in all departments, that was it.

[lufc1304]

I think Paul may have touched on this early in the thread as well, but rotating the players to know what he has at his disposal could be invaluable down the line especially in terms of the January window and that final fourth of the season when the wheels will fall off for some teams who lack quality depth or have overplayed certain line-ups. The key is that it is a lesson learned so that some positives come from the loss. Say what you may about DF's tactics, subs, etc., but he doesn't strike me as the kind of manager to not make the most of a bad situation if he can--he does seem to put in the work.

Absolutely Ash. In an ideal scenario, DF is in at the start of the summer, business inward and outward is concluded in a timely manner and he has a number of weeks to assess what he has. He wasn't afforded that luxury, and whilst you can try different combinations in training, it's no substitute for actual games. It's all well and good playing your best 11 every game, and again you'd do that if you could, but the championship is attritional and change will be inevitable at some point, whether through injury, suspension or loss of form. DF isn't infallible, he got last night wrong, but I can see the reasoning behind the changes he made and I'd be surprised if that performance, or lack thereof, didn't inform his thinking going forward. It's a old adage, but you learn more in defeat than you do in victory.

[Kennyb41]

You can find fans at any club who moan about their manager regardless of how well the club is doing.
For me Farke is doing OK - nothing more and nothing less.
I always expected us to be in the top 6 so he hasn’t under achieved nor has he over achieved.

This ^

With what he inherited and the troubles at the start of the season, there are more plus's than minus's.

He does not deserve to be called out yet, he needs a couple more windows and time to get his team drilled and settled.

If Rodon - Ampadu - Rutter all end up on the treatment table, how do you think we'll go on ?

[Kennyb41]

I think Paul may have touched on this early in the thread as well, but rotating the players to know what he has at his disposal could be invaluable down the line especially in terms of the January window and that final fourth of the season when the wheels will fall off for some teams who lack quality depth or have overplayed certain line-ups. The key is that it is a lesson learned so that some positives come from the loss. Say what you may about DF's tactics, subs, etc., but he doesn't strike me as the kind of manager to not make the most of a bad situation if he can--he does seem to put in the work.

Agree on all.

[Kennyb41]

Absolutely Ash. In an ideal scenario, DF is in at the start of the summer, business inward and outward is concluded in a timely manner and he has a number of weeks to assess what he has. He wasn't afforded that luxury, and whilst you can try different combinations in training, it's no substitute for actual games. It's all well and good playing your best 11 every game, and again you'd do that if you could, but the championship is attritional and change will be inevitable at some point, whether through injury, suspension or loss of form. DF isn't infallible, he got last night wrong, but I can see the reasoning behind the changes he made and I'd be surprised if that performance, or lack thereof, didn't inform his thinking going forward. It's a old adage, but you learn more in defeat than you do in victory.

This is where i'm coming from.

There was fck all wrong with the team on paper at the start, there is a lot to be learned at the end.

[Clacton White]

If only I was I could get on the pitch and take the ball off Bamford, slap him twice and kick him up the arse.

Don't wait until he has the ball.....just do it when he steps onto the pitch. Why would anyone be surprised that Bamford misses a penalty , it's what he does, he misses things . Waste of a squad place really, just carrying on from where he left off last season .Same old same old .

[GreennWhite]

We are not even a third of the way through the season and some fans on here are sharpening the knives already for players and manager
Long way to go yet, have faith.

[Barlow Boy]

Don't wait until he has the ball.....just do it when he steps onto the pitch. Why would anyone be surprised that Bamford misses a penalty , it's what he does, he misses things . Waste of a squad place really, just carrying on from where he left off last season .Same old same old .

I’m a big fan of Farke, I think he has done extremely well considering what he inherited at the start of the season. He’s not infallible, not by a long chalk, but who is.

However, he said Piroe was the designated penalty taker last night but he was off the pitch. Surely, you plan for such a scenario, i.e if we get a penalty and Piroe is off the pitch, player x takes it. That doesn’t seem to have been the case, and he left it to the players, poor management that for me.