Leeds Utd v Birmingham City Match Thread

[weasel]

I applauded Dan, when he chased back 40 yards to hold up a Birmingham winger, as did the rest of the kop. It's not only his goals & assist to admire, it's his phenomenal work rate, too!

The sort of player I think a former manager of ours would like.

[1964white]

His cardio recovery must be phenomonal from sprints, He rarely seems to tire.

Dan is an automatic starter for me, considerably more effective than any of our bench players.

[weasel]

Oh but fck me Andrew God forbid it didn't come off at the first attempt eh ???!!! Jeez, all the PB know nowts would be feckin slaughtering player and manager....." what the feckin hell's he trying that useless twat for, i could've told him he's a twat"

Leeds fans huh, who'd have em.

Amazing how many fans have gone from not even wanting Bamford on the bench to now would be starting him every match. If the Birmingham keeper had got a stronger hand on PB's header then no doubt PB would be getting slaughtered tonight on here and Leeds forums everywhere. Fine margins and hugely different outcomes.

[weasel]

As they should, '64. Dan may not always pick out the best cross or shot, but you can't critique his work rate. In fact, along with Jimmy, I'd say DF has him running with more purpose, whether that's getting forward or tracking back--making the most of one of Dan's best assets.

You can see exactly why Bielsa wanted him. A player that has speed, has determination and works his b*llox off for a team. You can't train that into a player but if you have a player with that then you can coach other things into them.

[Cjay]

It's an interesting scenario. I really think Bamford at 9 and Rutter at 10 is our best combination. Piroe would likely end the season with more goals than both combined. But it really looks like us playing to our strengths. Round pegs in round holes. Rutter is our most creative player. He needs to play at 10. He's probably the most talented 10 in the championship. And he fluffs in front of goal. As a 10, he's got every attribute to make us a great attacking team.

Simialrly, Piroe does not physically seem to fit Farke's ideal of a lone striker. Bamford does. We've seen how good he's been at running and pressing. Hopefully after a run of games he can refind his sharpness in front of goal. Maybe not the 17 goal PL season he had. But at least some semblance of that. Piroe needs to work in training and show that he can press like Bamford does. If Bamford could finish like Piroe and Piroe could press like Bamford ....

But I think today's combo is our best. And for Piroe to work on his game and come back in as a 9 when needed,

Personally I think Piroe would thrive if given time and training.

Russell Martin praised his work rate last season, I don't think it's that he can't press its just not his game for 90minutes.

He's a goalscorer and a good technical player (as we saw with his goal in the Ipswich game).

If Piroe isn't the type of player Farke wants then why buy him? Farke must have agreed so it's his job to coach the player to get the best out of him imo.

[Jaydog]

Bamford rose like a white headed salmon which so surprised Birmingham's keeper he just waved as the ball flew in to the net.

[Cjay]

Amazing how many fans have gone from not even wanting Bamford on the bench to now would be starting him every match. If the Birmingham keeper had got a stronger hand on PB's header then no doubt PB would be getting slaughtered tonight on here and Leeds forums everywhere. Fine margins and hugely different outcomes.

Tbf he's been asked to perform in little cameos and not performed (something Farke said himself he'd have struggled with).

Today he and Firpo had time . . . . . .

[Cjay]

Get to feck, you were in your element when we were running bad, you couldn't stick the knife into DF enough.

And today he's stuck it right up you on a number of fronts.

Oh give over.

He's done what people have been saying . . . .

Playing people in the correct roles and giving them time and beaten Birmingham who are crap.

Bit early for your I told you so stuff.

Try directing your obsession to other posters though, getting really bored of you mentioning me in posts or taking obvious digs.

Want to debate fine but stop bringing me up in posts I'm not involved in I'm really getting fed up of it.

It's weird

[weasel]

Honestly Weasel, if DF can get Firpo summert like with his defending, i really will eat my hat.

I said this about Bert and Dallas though, so i will keep the salt n pepper handy.

Indeed, we saw it with not only Dallas but Alioski too. If they have enough pace, but more importantly the right mental attitude, then you can work on the player. They might never turn into prime Bobby Moore defensively but if they can get forward and get back then at the very least they are holding up the opposition winger for a second or two to enable other defenders to get back into position.

It must be incredibly hard to go forward and then chase back and be able to get yourself into the position you want to be to face a winger coming at you. You are in effect making the job of defending so much harder than it is. As a full back you want to be in position and thus be able to dictate to the winger where you want them to go (for me it would be show them the outside and then stretch out a leg and clear the ball into touch). But you can't realyl get yourself set if you are having to chase back first.

[Cjay]

Interestingly I would compare Rooney to Rutter as players. Both could be put up as the lone number 9 striker and both could play 10 and both were/are somewhere in between the 2 roles. Rooney in his early days would run all over the pitch, he wanted the ball, he wanted to make something happen, he didn't want to be stuck just up top waiting for the ball to come to him but by playing him there it allowed him to have more freedom so he could roam around the pitch and a centreback couldn't really follow him.

I think Farke is saying that he trusts Rutter a bit more now and wants to give him the extra responsibility. He trusts Rutter to make better decisions than he had been making and lose the ball less in the wrong areas. Rutter is evolving as a player, possibly in the same way that Bielsa would play players out of position at times to increase their understanding of what happens around them. I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't mean that Rutter drops deeper more often in the future whether he is seen as starting at 9 or 10 with either Bamford seen as the cliched no.9 or that Prioe, whether as 10 or 9 ends up dropping less into midfield so that we in effect have 2 'false 9s' - something that Man City have done in the past.

It is all about evolving as a team and getting the team to gel as an attacking unit. Having Piroe as a traditional 9 but him not pressing as much would likely mean Summerville having less freedom. Often despite Piroe being '10' and Rutter '9' it has been Summerville popping up in the areas where a '10' would normally be. It is a fluid attack which is shown be the fact the 4 front players have all been scoring goals and the no.9 has least of them all - and whilst Rutter's finishing has been questionable I wouldn't be surprised if he and Piroe have had less shots than Summerville and James.

We are not regimented in how we play and certainly not in how players should play given their shirt number (or assumed number given squad numbers). Players don't simply have their role but often have to be aware of where they need to be if for example one of our fullbacks (or both) are caught upfield and we lose possession. There is structure yet also freedom and getting the balance right all the time is tricky (an example being Ayling who couldn't any longer get back so if he had the freedom he couldn't still give us the structure). This is where at some point the team needs better players as they need players who can do it all and as a team progresses in terms of the quality they play against the weaknesses cannot be masked. We saw that with the Bielsa side and similarly I think Farke had it with his Norwich side, drop back down to the championship and they were fine teams couldn't punish them as easily and Pukki went back to being clinical against lesser keepers.

We don't need to get hung up on where Rutter suposedly plays. He was still playing in the same way he did when he was the 9 but may have been deeper more often today However it was shades of grey rather than black and white.

Farke has turned some talented individuals into a fairly cohesive team but we are still evolving. We were on our knees when he started and he got us walking and then running. He is no doubt still assessing exactly what he has got given that he was probably simply happy to just keep anyone who was willing to stay and could only really attack the transfer market after he got the money for selling Tyler Adams. He will no doubt have a far clearer picture now of where he needs to strengthen and which players are no longer part of his plans. Only 4 of the players who started today played in the first match against Birmingham - and out of those 4 Byram only played 10 minutes today and Gray started in midfield when we played them previously. Ampadu and James were our only other starters fromt hat game and likely James wouldn't have started but for Gnonto and Sinisterra (and possibly Cree) deciding they didn't want to play. For those knocking Farke they really need a reality check in terms of how disruptive it must have been to try to prepare the team in the summer and also realise that the team has been evolving ever since. As a contrast Ipswich had 7 players that started for them today that played when they beat Stoke earlier in the season - the other 4 starters from that day were not even on the bench so I can only presume they are injured otherwise it may well have been close to the same 11. They have a team/squad that has played with each other a lot longer than ours has.

Nice thought out post

Not going to respond to each point as it would take weeks

Today was decent, hopefully a turning point on certain things.

But wasnt perfect against an awful team and stupid manager.

Hopefully a catalyst rather than a false dawn.

Concern I have is Birmingham were there for the taking.

It's against better organised and more defensive teams we struggle.

[1964white]

As they should, '64. Dan may not always pick out the best cross or shot, but you can't critique his work rate. In fact, along with Jimmy, I'd say DF has him running with more purpose, whether that's getting forward or tracking back--making the most of one of Dan's best assets.

It's so noticeable the pace of James & Summerville has gone once the pair are not on the pitch.

As I posted previously, we become worse with every substitute we make in the second-half.

Folk crying out for Gnonto to start, right now Cree & Dan are three times the player Willy is, and he thinks he's good enough for the PL, Gnonto is in for a nasty shock if he does get the move he may crave for!

[1964white]

You can see exactly why Bielsa wanted him. A player that has speed, has determination and works his b*llox off for a team. You can't train that into a player but if you have a player with that then you can coach other things into them.

Indeed

[Kennyb41]

You can see exactly why Bielsa wanted him. A player that has speed, has determination and works his b*llox off for a team. You can't train that into a player but if you have a player with that then you can coach other things into them.

And an excellent player to work on in the Championship.

Like i've said previous, Bert saw him v us for Swansea and most likely told Clown 'he'll do if you can get him, have we any money, 5m should do, do i have to raise it myself ?"

But no, clown Leeds fans think he wanted him for the 25m paid second hand from scum

[weasel]

Tbf he's been asked to perform in little cameos and not performed (something Farke said himself he'd have struggled with).

Today he and Firpo had time . . . . . .

How many fans would have brought Spence on though, instead of Firpo, and played him out of positon?

It is only because we had lost the last two matches. Before that if Bamford had have been picked to start instead of either Rutter or Piroe Farke would have been slaughtered by the fans. Indeed most fans, yourself included, were not happy with Bamford being given the start today......

Why are we finally going to see Rutter at 10 presumably but the most prolific forward in the Championship last 2 seasons is dropped for a bloke who whilst class at one time has struggled for ages ? Farke to stubborn to admit his rant over Piroe was wrong?

[AcrossThePondAsh]

Bamford rose like a white headed salmon which so surprised Birmingham's keeper he just waved as the ball flew in to the net.

So eloquently stated, as usual, JD...made me spit out my coffee this

...and now unfortunately an image I can't unsee

[Kennyb41]

Oh give over.

He's done what people have been saying . . . .

Playing people in the correct roles and giving them time and beaten Birmingham who are crap.

Bit early for your I told you so stuff.

Try directing your obsession to other posters though, getting really bored of you mentioning me in posts or taking obvious digs.

Want to debate fine but stop bringing me up in posts I'm not involved in I'm really getting fed up of it.

It's weird

Only last week you were telling us how right you are about our manager, who in 21 weeks has us challenging for promotion amongst a heap load of 'other stuff' he's dealing with, and you want him out the door.

That's what i call early.

[AcrossThePondAsh]

You can see exactly why Bielsa wanted him. A player that has speed, has determination and works his b*llox off for a team. You can't train that into a player but if you have a player with that then you can coach other things into them.

Exactly...seems to be one of DF's strengths as a manager. Think we've seen the same with Jimmy, who clearly has a different skill set, but can now be found regularly tracking back more and disrupting play defensively.

[Cjay]

How many fans would have brought Spence on though, instead of Firpo, and played him out of positon?

It is only because we had lost the last two matches. Before that if Bamford had have been picked to start instead of either Rutter or Piroe Farke would have been slaughtered by the fans. Indeed most fans, yourself included, were not happy with Bamford being given the start today......

See I'm unsure what I would have done regarding Firpo.

I'm no fan like most but I also loathe playing players out of position. It's one of my biggest issues, I just don't like it.

Obviously I'm not the manager but I'd like to think I'd replace the player at left back with the left back on my bench.

I wasn't no (you didn't need to quote it)

Because I want to see Piroe given a chance as a striker (as he did briefly tbf).

I do still think Farke has been stubborn over Piroe and Rutter, I think he really backed himself into a corner with that rant.

Was pleased to see Rutter Play where he did today and equally pleased to see Bamford do well as he is a decent option at this level certainly based on pedigree (a point i made the other day same with Firpo)

I hope never to see Rutter and Piroe in the same positions they have been playing again and if Bamford can regain confidence and rebuild his relationship with the fans then that's a good thing also.

[andrewjohnsmith]

Amazing how many fans have gone from not even wanting Bamford on the bench to now would be starting him every match. If the Birmingham keeper had got a stronger hand on PB's header then no doubt PB would be getting slaughtered tonight on here and Leeds forums everywhere. Fine margins and hugely different outcomes.

Not from me. Always known he's had the ability. He just lost his groove in between the injuries. The misses have been painful to watch. But I know he's the got the ability to be getting a run of starts again.

[Cjay]

Only last week you were telling us how right you are about our manager, who in 21 weeks has us challenging for promotion amongst a heap load of 'other stuff' he's dealing with, and you want him out the door.

That's what i call early.

I never said sack Farke

You have this habit of claiming I said things I didn't and then never being able to back them up

I said he was underachieving and his tactics don't work well enough away from home where his reliance on individuals in key moments is nullified by a more defensive opponent.

None of those things were shown to be wrong today.

In a home match vs an opponent who didn't park the bus, weren't defensively organised and had an inexperienced manager able to adapt.