Who do you hold responsible?

[danhirons]

Owners have pumped money in. Fulham has lost well over hundreds of millions the last few years, but the owner keeps pumping money in.

our net spend is comfortably higher than fulham's the last 2.5 years (circa 150 mill v 80/90 mill) - money has been pumped in, this summer not enough, but beforehand yes

[SG90]

well you're kind of predicting the future there a bit...

but if you want examples of teams who have stayed in the prem on a budget, then palace, saints, leicester, brighton must all have spent less or around the same as us on average - obviously I get your point that you need to spend to stay in the division but since we've got promoted we've spent a fair whack. this summer is disappointing since our net spend was essentially zero however...

Of those clubs only Leicester, who are struggling, and Brighton, who are now in freefall, have sold players. How have Southampton kept JWP so long? And Palace with Zaha? Because the owners are willing to invest some of their own money to help the club.

[SG90]

our net spend is comfortably higher than fulham's the last 2.5 years (circa 150 mill v 80/90 mill) - money has been pumped in, this summer not enough, but beforehand yes

No it hasnt. Radz took out loans from sky money to pay in instalments. There's been zero owner investment.

[Mountain]

well you're kind of predicting the future there a bit...

but if you want examples of teams who have stayed in the prem on a budget, then palace, saints, leicester, brighton must all have spent less or around the same as us on average - obviously I get your point that you need to spend to stay in the division but since we've got promoted we've spent a fair whack. this summer is disappointing since our net spend was essentially zero however...

It's not so much about spending, it's about salary. If you're in the market for players that will accept 40 or 60k a week, it doesn't matter if you spend 10 or 50 million on them. If you will pay players a maximum of what Leeds pay, relegation will always be on the cards. At least 2 of the clubs, Palace and Leicester, have players on at least twice the highest paid player at Leeds, Zaha and Vardy are in a different league of wage expectations than any Leeds player. Ward Prowse is paid well above any Leeds player.

I have no problem with running a club on a budget. But I think we have to appreciate that our expectations as fans are very high. We were almost shocked when Bielsa didn't perform his usual miracle, got rid, and now we are settling at our natural level given the wage restrictions.

[SG90]

It's not so much about spending, it's about salary. If you will pay players a maximum of what Leeds pay, relegation will always be on the cards. At least 2 of the clubs, Palace and Leicester, have players on at least twice the highest paid player at Leeds, Zaha and Vardy are in a different league of wage expectations than any Leeds player. Ward Prowse is paid well above any Leeds player.

I have no problem with running a club on a budget. But I think we have to appreciate that our expectations as fans are very high. We were almost shocked when Bielsa didn't perform his usual miracle, got rid, and now we are settling at our natural level given the wage restrictions.

Giving average players bigger salaries won't make them better players.

[Mountain]

Giving average players bigger salaries won't make them better players.

Oh I'm not proposing that Leeds up the salaries of players on the books, they're not a charity.

But having a cap on salaries will always always limit the type of player the club can attract. We had a manager who could coach them to be better. He's gone. I don't blame Marsch for not repeating the miracle.

[SG90]

It's not so much about spending, it's about salary. If you're in the market for players that will accept 40 or 60k a week, it doesn't matter if you spend 10 or 50 million on them. If you will pay players a maximum of what Leeds pay, relegation will always be on the cards. At least 2 of the clubs, Palace and Leicester, have players on at least twice the highest paid player at Leeds, Zaha and Vardy are in a different league of wage expectations than any Leeds player. Ward Prowse is paid well above any Leeds player.

I have no problem with running a club on a budget. But I think we have to appreciate that our expectations as fans are very high. We were almost shocked when Bielsa didn't perform his usual miracle, got rid, and now we are settling at our natural level given the wage restrictions.

I thought we'd struggle last season, given we didn't improve the squad and stood still. You can blame injuries, but we weren't winning games before then either. Once the promotion bounce wore off and crowds came back, the players were shown to not be up to this level.

For me, that is just poor planning from the board and manager to assume we'll finish 9th again because of the season before. We only had to look at the blunts who made the same mistake.

[Chilli D]

It is a combination of all those suggestions. The issues are too complex to point the finger at just one cause.

Totally agree

[SG90]

Oh I'm not proposing that Leeds up the salaries of players on the books, they're not a charity.

But having a cap on salaries will always always limit the type of player the club can attract. We had a manager who could coach them to be better. He's gone. I don't blame Marsch for not repeating the miracle.

Actually I think there's no fight because of how big their wages are. They know they'll get a huge bonus for finishing 17th again, so they will only turn it on at the end of the season. The lesser the wages, the more fight. Imo we need a few local lads in the side who bleed Leeds, which we don't have currently.

[BGwhite]

After 60 years of attending Leeds games, I'll seriously have to consider whether I purchase a season-ticket when Kinnear comes begging for £400 or £500 in February.

I have other priorities that enjoy in my life I'd rather spend my money on, it's not as if I can't afford it, I just don't look forward to games anymore, this board has finally knocked the stuffing out of me as I approach 70yo in twenty months time,

After attending many championship/league 1 & 2/non-league grounds, I don't think I have the heart or energy to go through all that drabness again, sick of it to be honest.

Kick back , relax and watch the shite from your favourite armchair, not that the performance improves but it means you can get up and make a nice cuppa anytime you want or even just switch off which happens quite regularly in our household

Sent from my moto g(9) plus using Tapatalk

[Kennyb41]

After 60 years of attending Leeds games, I'll seriously have to consider whether I purchase a season-ticket when Kinnear comes begging for £400 or £500 in February.

I have other priorities that enjoy in my life I'd rather spend my money on, it's not as if I can't afford it, I just don't look forward to games anymore, this board has finally knocked the stuffing out of me as I approach 70yo in twenty months time,

After attending many championship/league 1 & 2/non-league grounds, I don't think I have the heart or energy to go through all that drabness again, sick of it to be honest.

That speaks volumes in itself.

[weasel]

It is a combination of all those suggestions. The issues are too complex to point the finger at just one cause.

Would agree.

If narrowing it down I don't blame the owners. Sure they haven't pumped in oodles of money but on the same hand they haven't done like Norwich did and spent nothing. Where's their money gone? We've got a negative spend of around £150m on transfers since we got promoted to the premiership. Yes we may only be spending what the club makes but that is how a good club should be run.

So then we consider has that money been spent wisely and the answer is a mixed bag. Orta's record in the transfer market is patchy, some success in the transfer market and some failure. Have we spent as wisely as some clubs? Definitely not. We've had some success but I would say we have done an average job in terms of signings overall which consider we have someone in place specifically to get this right is poor. Throw in Orta's choice of manager, Marsch, and he has to take a lot of the blame for the current predicament.

On to the manager and for me the biggest portion of blame lies on his shoulders. Failed with Leipzig and brought the same tactics here. So if we are to ignore the limited tactics we look at other factors. Is his motivational side getting the most out of the players - the answer for me is no. We have seen little lifts in confidence of players like Rodrigo but most of the players look shot confidence wise. So man management - we heard a lot about how he manages players, as opposed to the hands off approach from Bielsa, and that he brought young players through. This hasn't happened. I don't see great mana management with Gelhardt and apart from Greenwood he doesn't seem to really be inclined to give youth a chance, Summerville given one start then dropped. Would a reasonably good manager have got more out of these players? The answer for me is yes.

The players - yes some are underperforming but I would say a lot of that stems from low confidence and a lot of that comes from not believeing in tactics. Yes Bamford missing chances is down to the player but equally I see us looking devoid and ponderous in possession because we are playing, in possession, like a bunch of individuals so it takes longer to make the decision where to pass to, or where to run to, and that is the key between making a great chance and making a good chance (or the chance being snuffed out). As such the players have to take a bit of the blame but organised properly and given confidence and they will be fine.

The solution - hire a better manager, a manager more suitable to getting the most out of this squad. Then have a really hard look at Orta and decide is he doing enough to keep his job. Or sell to Saudi's and hope they are loaded and can get round FFP.

[Kennyb41]

It is a combination of all those suggestions. The issues are too complex to point the finger at just one cause.

I voted Orta but this above is correct.

The board have lied to us about plenty, trying to pull the wool over our eyes and treating us like fools, they also slyly used Bert as a scapegoat amongst lots of other stuff.

Orta is getting away with murder, helped by the blindness of the football dumb Radz, who can't see the woods for the trees with how shite he is with the money. He's honestly a 'must talk a good job type of guy', we all know one of them.

Jesses not up to it, there's no anti Americanism from me, all the 'Yank' 'Big Jesse' 'Yankball' etc was just banter and craic for the forum,

Sara's been right from the start of his appointment if you read back on her posts, she never flinched and has got it spot on, whatever he's done it's been in a s**t league and not for long anyway, he doesn't have strings to his bow and will not make his biggest gameplan work apart from the odd time, but the longer it goes the lesser they will get. His Plan A will not be able to make work coz you can see him scratching his own head about it, he's flummoxed.

I will never be shifted from the fact we are where we are solely down to Bert, he produced a TEAM out of dross, and he's gone, but the dross hasn't and we're fcked.

Take away Bert and i don't think Radz gets his dream of the 5 year plan, in fact in the 5 years we could easily be back to square one which to me is just around the corner.

We need someone with a wand.

[Kennyb41]

Lol, looks like we were writing at the same time Weasel,

I forgot the players, then i'll go read yours.

I think we might just about have enough in the squad to avoid relegation, but not by playing this dickish way and that's all he knows or his best hand.

We need a new gameplan with a new manager, i don't know what it is, but i will know if it's good enough when i see it.

[Kennyb41]

Would agree.

If narrowing it down I don't blame the owners. Sure they haven't pumped in oodles of money but on the same hand they haven't done like Norwich did and spent nothing. Where's their money gone? We've got a negative spend of around £150m on transfers since we got promoted to the premiership. Yes we may only be spending what the club makes but that is how a good club should be run.

So then we consider has that money been spent wisely and the answer is a mixed bag. Orta's record in the transfer market is patchy, some success in the transfer market and some failure. Have we spent as wisely as some clubs? Definitely not. We've had some success but I would say we have done an average job in terms of signings overall which consider we have someone in place specifically to get this right is poor. Throw in Orta's choice of manager, Marsch, and he has to take a lot of the blame for the current predicament.

On to the manager and for me the biggest portion of blame lies on his shoulders. Failed with Leipzig and brought the same tactics here. So if we are to ignore the limited tactics we look at other factors. Is his motivational side getting the most out of the players - the answer for me is no. We have seen little lifts in confidence of players like Rodrigo but most of the players look shot confidence wise. So man management - we heard a lot about how he manages players, as opposed to the hands off approach from Bielsa, and that he brought young players through. This hasn't happened. I don't see great mana management with Gelhardt and apart from Greenwood he doesn't seem to really be inclined to give youth a chance, Summerville given one start then dropped. Would a reasonably good manager have got more out of these players? The answer for me is yes.

The players - yes some are underperforming but I would say a lot of that stems from low confidence and a lot of that comes from not believeing in tactics. Yes Bamford missing chances is down to the player but equally I see us looking devoid and ponderous in possession because we are playing, in possession, like a bunch of individuals so it takes longer to make the decision where to pass to, or where to run to, and that is the key between making a great chance and making a good chance (or the chance being snuffed out). As such the players have to take a bit of the blame but organised properly and given confidence and they will be fine.

The solution - hire a better manager, a manager more suitable to getting the most out of this squad. Then have a really hard look at Orta and decide is he doing enough to keep his job. Or sell to Saudi's and hope they are loaded and can get round FFP.

I agree with it all.

Why do you mention the Saudi's? Have i missed something, has someone come sniffing ? Or you just using them as an example?

[SG90]

I agree with it all.

Why do you mention the Saudi's? Have i missed something, has someone come sniffing ? Or you just using them as an example?

Jim Ratcliffe

[SG90]

I voted Orta but this above is correct.

The board have lied to us about plenty, trying to pull the wool over our eyes and treating us like fools, they also slyly used Bert as a scapegoat amongst lots of other stuff.

Orta is getting away with murder, helped by the blindness of the football dumb Radz, who can't see the woods for the trees with how shite he is with the money. He's honestly a 'must talk a good job type of guy', we all know one of them.

Jesses not up to it, there's no anti Americanism from me, all the 'Yank' 'Big Jesse' 'Yankball' etc was just banter and craic for the forum,

Sara's been right from the start of his appointment if you read back on her posts, she never flinched and has got it spot on, whatever he's done it's been in a s**t league and not for long anyway, he doesn't have strings to his bow and will not make his biggest gameplan work apart from the odd time, but the longer it goes the lesser they will get. His Plan A will not be able to make work coz you can see him scratching his own head about it, he's flummoxed.

I will never be shifted from the fact we are where we are solely down to Bert, he produced a TEAM out of dross, and he's gone, but the dross hasn't and we're fcked.

Take away Bert and i don't think Radz gets his dream of the 5 year plan, in fact in the 5 years we could easily be back to square one which to me is just around the corner.

We need someone with a wand.

If Orta is to blame, then so are the board for keeping him on.

[Kennyb41]

" The solution - hire a better manager, a manager more suitable to getting the most out of this squad. Then have a really hard look at Orta and decide is he doing enough to keep his job. Or sell to Saudi's and hope they are loaded and can get round FFP."

This above is definitely the answer, and it's got to happen asap for him (or her) to stand any chance especially after Andrew pointed out our fixtures against the top teams.

And i won't budge until he's gone but Orta is a liability.

I don't give a s**t if his profit and loss gets made to look right because he got lucky with 1 Raphinha, because there are just way too many wild of the mark, he cannot keep getting away with the Firpo's Costa's Douglas's etc etc ....i could go on for ages, but he cannot be any good because of this amount of failures, i could forgive the odd one, but we're not a club that can afford this many of his.

He's a total fraud and one day i'll guarantee you'll see it, but you'll never hold your hands up those that thinkhe's Gods gift to the scouting world.

[Kennyb41]

If Orta is to blame, then so are the board for keeping him on.

Yes they are, you're absolutely correct,

Radz is purely and simply a businessman that knows jackshit about footy and thinks he's hired the bes, i've said it all along.

If i could get to speak to Radz i'd open his eyes, and if i could confront the clown i'll guarantee a fight would break out coz i'd show him up for what a fraud he is and he'd come at me with fists.

And i would love it and drop him like a stone.

[pjm2019]

After 60 years of attending Leeds games, I'll seriously have to consider whether I purchase a season-ticket when Kinnear comes begging for £400 or £500 in February.

I have other priorities that enjoy in my life I'd rather spend my money on, it's not as if I can't afford it, I just don't look forward to games anymore, this board has finally knocked the stuffing out of me as I approach 70yo in twenty months time,

After attending many championship/league 1 & 2/non-league grounds, I don't think I have the heart or energy to go through all that drabness again, sick of it to be honest.

i feel the same