Qatar World Cup 2022. Argentina v France

[SG90]

I think it boiled down to priorities and obviously in the seasons MB was in charge the priority was the league. I would have thought/hoped that if we had got to the point where we had become a fairly secure premier league side then we'd have looked to do better in the cups or at least take them more seriously. Don't forget the Arsenal performance in the FA Cup though when we went to their place and outplayed them in the first half and could, and should, have been 2 or 3 goals up at half time before losing to a very scruffy Arsenal goal in the second half. We were a far inferior group of players but in that first half were by far the better team. That reflects the point I am making about getting the best out of a team but how with the calibre of players at England's disposal a good coach can take great individual and create a great team (like Pep at City in comparison to how MU have failed despite spending the same amount of money).

Would Pep do better than GS if he was in charge of England? Would GS do better than Pep if GS was in charge of Man City (or previously Bayern or Barca)?

GS has done a great job in terms of building a happy squad and a good sense of togetherness etc. But it still smacks of picking a formation, picking the players and then hoping for the best rather than us playing as a team with cohesion and a way that makes us even better.

It doesn't matter who's in charge tbh, as until we produce passing midfielders and technical players over plodders and runners, we won't win anything. That's why we always lose to superior opposition.

[Mountain]

If he has any sense, he'll leave. The football was pragmatic but his record at major tournaments is remarkable when compared with every one of his predecessors, even those with far better achievements at club level like Revie, Capello, Robson, Eriksson and Ramsey. He'd be the first manager to leave pretty unscathed by the press, though to be fair to Venables his maulings were more for his business issues or the players drinking in Hong Kong.

[SG90]

If he has any sense, he'll leave. The football was pragmatic but his record at major tournaments is remarkable when compared with every one of his predecessors, even those with far better achievements at club level like Revie, Capello, Robson, Eriksson and Ramsey. He'd be the first manager to leave pretty unscathed by the press, though to be fair to Venables his maulings were more for his business issues or the players drinking in Hong Kong.

Remarkable

He's beaten Wales, Iran, Senegal, Tunisia, Panama, Sweden and Colombia on pens. What's remarkable about that?

Best in my lifetime was Sven. Lost to goat Brazil team with Ronaldo, Roberto Carlos, Cafu, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo after a goalkeeping error, and lost on pens v Portugal twice after a goal wrongly ruled out in 2004. He also beat Argentina in a foreign country, which no other England manager has. But the xenophobic media slated him while fawning over Southgate.

Hoddle and Venables could've been good but were gone too soon as they weren't yes men.

[SG90]

Funny how the two Irish posters are the most pro Southgate Wonder why?

[1964white]

Remarkable

He's beaten Wales, Iran, Senegal, Tunisia, Panama, Sweden and Colombia on pens. What's remarkable about that?

The majority of England fans do get carried away, not realising the quality to come after we've beaten such average nations listed above.

[SG90]

The majority of England fans do get carried away, not realising the quality to come after we've beaten such average nations listed above.

Yep the same deluded ones who say the Nations League doesn't matter.

[SG90]

Swap Southgate with Hoddle, Venables or Sven and does he make a final or semi with those draws? Nope!

[Irish Ian]

Yep the same deluded ones who say the Nations League doesn't matter.

If you are going to have a go at me, don't be such a coward as to bring others into it.

[SG90]

If you are going to have a go at me, don't be such a coward as to bring others into it.

Eh? You're not an England fan. Plenty of England fans claim it is not important, yet they'll want Southgate out for not beating any top sides. If England want to win trophies, we need to start respecting the Nations League.

Like Leeds fans who claim the Carabao Cup isn't important, while we win f**k all.

[Mountain]

Remarkable

He's beaten Wales, Iran, Senegal, Tunisia, Panama, Sweden and Colombia on pens. What's remarkable about that?

Best in my lifetime was Sven. Lost to goat Brazil team with Ronaldo, Roberto Carlos, Cafu, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo after a goalkeeping error, and lost on pens v Portugal twice after a goal wrongly ruled out in 2004. He also beat Argentina in a foreign country, which no other England manager has. But the xenophobic media slated him while fawning over Southgate.

Hoddle and Venables could've been good but were gone too soon as they weren't yes men.

So in citing Eriksson you refer to his loss in 02, loss in 04 and loss in 06? It's not exactly inspiring. What was Eriksson, Hoddle and Venables track record in winning knock out games? As the "only beat easy opponents" one is constantly levelled at Southgate, I'm interested in the litany of great wins by his predecessors.

[Boo Radley]

Not an English fan, so take this as you like. I think England should move on from Southgate. He is too conservative in his tactics and substitutions and too disconnected on the bench.

Taking Saka off was simply madness, but it seemed he felt it was time for Grealish to contribute his usual nothingness. France greeted this like a goal, which it kinda was for them.

There should have been a plan for a second penalty in normal time and a discussion with Kane around facing Loris twice (maybe even 3 times!). That may have given him an out, or time to really plan where to place the following penalty/ies.

What really did surprise me was how agitated and emotional he allowed his players to become because of a dodgy ref. Teams like Portugal are out and out cheats and harass referees as easily as they run. For players like Saka, Bellingham and Rice, they were losing their heads and it impacted on their games and no one told them to stop and calm down. That was up to Southgate, in the same way that Bielsa stops this happening in his teams. Get on with it and focus.

Maybe Southgate can improve and win something, but it's a gamble with the odds widening. All this while quality youngsters are coming through and when someone new could use that time to build a new approach.

[weasel]

It doesn't matter who's in charge tbh, as until we produce passing midfielders and technical players over plodders and runners, we won't win anything. That's why we always lose to superior opposition.

But we do have those players. Okay maybe we don't have a DeBruyne but players like Foden, Bellingham, Rice etc are players that can play a possession based football with passing and moving. Bielsa took plodders and runners at Leeds and turned them into a side that could pass and move and play to a much higher level than they were previously playing at. So any half decent coach could mould a team given what he has to choose from for England.

Man City are an excellent technical team. Foden, Walker, Stones and Grealish played for them. Pep wanted Maguire and Kane so he must have thought they could play that way. Sterling also played for them. There is more than enough talent for us to play like Leeds did under Bielsa but also having enough quality to not have to have the round pegs or put in players not good enough etc. There is more than enough quality english players to play the best brand of Bielsaball and not have the weaknesses.

[SG90]

So in citing Eriksson you refer to his loss in 02, loss in 04 and loss in 06? It's not exactly inspiring. What was Eriksson, Hoddle and Venables track record in winning knock out games? As the "only beat easy opponents" one is constantly levelled at Southgate, I'm interested in the litany of great wins by his predecessors.

2002 - We lost to an all time great team after a goalkeeping error
2004 - lose on penalties to host nation after having a goal wrongly ruled out in ET
2006 - I agree we were crap, the height of the overrated and overhyped England teams. But Sven got all the blame and the same players then failed to qualify for Euro 2008, so it looks like they were the problem.

Venables beat Spain on penalties and Hoddle lost on penalties to Argentina after we had ten men for most of the game.

Southgate faced Sweden and Ukraine in quarter finals and lost to France missing 6 players. You believe he'd have won any of those matches above? His record is overrated as he got favourable draws.

The only ones praising Southgate are his mates in the media, Scotland fans, Wales fans and Ireland fans.

It'll never happen but I'd love Jose tbh. He'd install a winning mentality.

[SG90]

But we do have those players. Okay maybe we don't have a DeBruyne but players like Foden, Bellingham, Rice etc are players that can play a possession based football with passing and moving. Bielsa took plodders and runners at Leeds and turned them into a side that could pass and move and play to a much higher level than they were previously playing at. So any half decent coach could mould a team given what he has to choose from for England.

Man City are an excellent technical team. Foden, Walker, Stones and Grealish played for them. Pep wanted Maguire and Kane so he must have thought they could play that way. Sterling also played for them. There is more than enough talent for us to play like Leeds did under Bielsa but also having enough quality to not have to have the round pegs or put in players not good enough etc. There is more than enough quality english players to play the best brand of Bielsaball and not have the weaknesses.

Rice can't play on the half turn. Kalvin can but unfortunately he'll be benched for the foreseeable future.

[Mountain]

2002 - We lost to an all time great team after a goalkeeping error
2004 - lose on penalties to host nation after having a goal wrongly ruled out in ET
2006 - I agree we were crap, the height of the overrated and overhyped England teams. But Sven got all the blame and the same players then failed to qualify for Euro 2008, so it looks like they were the problem.

Venables beat Spain on penalties and Hoddle lost on penalties to Argentina after we had ten men for most of the game.

Southgate faced Sweden and Ukraine in quarter finals and lost to France missing 6 players. You believe he'd have won any of those matches above? His record is overrated as he got favourable draws.

The only ones praising Southgate are his mates in the media, Scotland fans, Wales fans and Ireland fans.

It'll never happen but I'd love Jose tbh. He'd install a winning mentality.

So when asked for great knockout wins of the managers you mention, you've come up with 1. Venables v Spain. A Spanish team that was nothing like their team 10 years later and was playing at Wembley.

And even though Seven had the golden generation with Ferdinand, Terry, Lampard, Scholes, Rooney, Cole etc, you can't name one good knockout win? It's just really good defeat after really good defeat?

I take the point that it's fans from other countries who correctly point out that England's record at tournaments is nowhere near the hype and expectation that fans in England place on them.

[SG90]

2021/2022 were England's best two chances of winning something. 2021 was on home soil and I've never known Argentina, Brazil, Germany, Spain and Italy to be so poor at the same time, while France were missing 6 players.

Germany will be much stronger in home soil in 2024 and eager to bounce back and 2026 will be played in the heat and altitude after a long season.

[SG90]

So when asked for great knockout wins of the managers you mention, you've come up with 1. Venables v Spain. A Spanish team that was nothing like their team 10 years later and was playing at Wembley.

And even though Seven had the golden generation with Ferdinand, Terry, Lampard, Scholes, Rooney, Cole etc, you can't name one good knockout win? It's just really good defeat after really good defeat?

I take the point that it's fans from other countries who correctly point out that England's record at tournaments is nowhere near the hype and expectation that fans in England place on them.

Well that was the point I was making. England are a quarter final team at best in my lifetime. Southgate broke through because we didn't face a top side in the quarters. He did in 2022 and that's why we're home. England always lose to the first top side we face.

I said previously I don't like the hype from the fans or the media. I know England are quarters at best team. I just don't agree Southgate has done a better job than predecessors, he's just been lucky with opponents in the quarters.

Since 1990 (my lifetime) England have faced Cameroon, Spain, Sweden and Ukraine in the quarters before reaching the semis. Of those Spain is the best and that was with home advantage and a Spain team who are notoriously poor at penalties. But El Tel only had one tournament compared to Southgate's 3. You could even include the Nations League and it becomes 5. I think Venables and Hoddle were wasted opportunities imo.

Sven probably gave us our best two memories in my lifetime - 5-1 v Germany and 1-0 v Argentina in Sapporo

[mentalcase]

[Orange Box]

IMG-20221212-WA0007.jpg

don't ya just luv a conspiracy

[mentalcase]

don't ya just luv a conspiracy

Joking aside though,there were some pretty dubious decisions going on in both games, how many dodgy penalties did Messi get ?
I also thought France were lucky to have their 1st goal allowed and Kane not get a penalty................bitter, me !!!
I'll bet you Jocks enjoyed it though ?