The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Wednesday 25th January) - Fabrizio Romano: McKennie agrees personal terms with Leeds

[Jaydog]

Yeah, when you think of it like that, it's nonsensical. I presume, historically, certain Anglo-Saxon words fell out of favour after the Norman Conquest. Then puritanical Protestantism demonised anything to do with bodily and sexual functions. So now we think these words are 'rude'.

There's an obvious element of misogyny in reserving special ire for the 'c' word. I think it shares a root meaning with the word 'cunning', although that is debated.

Misogyny? You mean because it’s specifically a “female” word. So the equivalent should be equally shocking. But it isn’t.
Do you use the c word at home? With your partner?
I mean I’ll say f**k twat c**k to my wife in conversation. And so does she. Not all the time but in context, not just for no reason. But never the c word. Because we are programmed to dislike it. Its origins are confused & convoluted.
I find it quite fascinating. A word that can truly shock people. I don’t think there’s another one. Maybe the N word

[DDB220]

Not sure what to make of this comment Sara. I hope you are not transferring your animus toward our American Manager onto our American players. I think that would be entirely unfair. The signings of Aaronson, Adams, and potentially McKennie stand on their own merit. All three are good young International players that featured in the World Cup for a Top 15 FIFA ranked side. They were all playing Champion's League football when we acquired them. In the case of Adams and McKennie they were/are performing at top clubs in big five leagues. It seems to me those are the types of signings we should be pursuing. But you are concerned it's just a marketing ploy. Hmm...

Would it be a marketing ploy if Leeds were able to sign a couple more Italian Internationals currently playing in top five leagues at Champion's League Clubs? After all we do have an Italian owner. Or is this just a standard that we apply to Americans? And if that's the case WHY do you feel that way?

Here’s my take - take Marsch out of this equation and the suggestion we are in danger of losing our identity would evaporate.

However, I do agree that the signing’s may be considered as a win win for the board in terms of generating interest in the US for the club. But hasn’t this been a strategy with other clubs signing high profile Japanese and South Korean players. The US market is relatively untapped source of revenue, it makes good business sense to exploit that opportunity.

However, if we sign Sylvester Stallone as a back up keeper or Tommy Hilfiger gets the contract to make our shirts I would share your concerns. Although I would queue to buy one.

[andrewjohnsmith]

McKennie -= Excellent signing. Doesn't matter what country he was born in. Shows great ambition by the club too.

Harrison - Would love to see him stay as part of the squad but continually suspect he doesn't fit Jesse's style. He's got a year and change on his contract. Take the money.

Accrington - 8 days between that game and Forest. Play a strong team, but get a few of the bench players involved.

[Jaydog]

Yes, and yes again, it gets used a lot here!

There has been a feminist attempt to reclaim it for women, in the same way queer or the N word have been reclaimed by the communities targeted. I use it deliberately with that intention, and don't like its use being censored.

Good for you. I try and support the cause whenever I can, especially if I hit my effing finger with a hammer. Then it’s c c c c c and guess what. I feel better. A natural painkiller

[BobHirst]

Yes, and yes again, it gets used a lot here!

There has been a feminist attempt to reclaim it for women, in the same way queer or the N word have been reclaimed by the communities targeted. I use it deliberately with that intention, and don't like its use being censored.

So the next time I persistently disagree with you and you call me a d*ck I assume it's OK to call you a c*nt?

[BobHirst]

Now now.
Strange though isn’t it. The ultimate taboo word.
I’d say above all others. What if trout was offensive. Or cul-de-sac. That’s where I don’t really understand words. Who decided that we can’t say something and for some reason we all went along with it.

I've had this conversation with my grand children. Well obviously not about F and C words.
We had a good time making up conversations imagining that the person called a foot an elephant etc etc. It does make you wonder why they chose the word they did.

[BlackHillsPaul]

It's a shame you seem to feel it's beneath you to respond; is any implied criticism of the US off limits?

Fwiw, I'm every bit as critical of the UK, and don't have a problem engaging with other people's criticisms of the place I happen to be born in.

I joined this forum to talk about Leeds United Football Club and to connect with other fans. Not to veer off into geopolitics. It's not "beneath me" to respond. I just choose not to. Like I said....moving on.

[Jaydog]

I've had this conversation with my grand children. Well obviously not about F and C words.
We had a good time making up conversations imagining that the person called a foot an elephant etc etc. It does make you wonder why they chose the word they did.

Classic Bob. Has the kids rolling about laughing pretty quick.
Funny story about my nephew about 6 years old being allowed to stay up at a dinner party at my mums. Sat next to an old posh bloke. He dropped some peas and said “f**k it” under his breath. The old codger lent forward and said “what was that young man” and in a much louder voice so all could hear “I said f**k it”
Kids are always honest

[Kennyb41]

Of course! Although let's not lose the nuance distinguishing the meanings of the words in current usage.

[The Subhuman]

You demanded to know in capital letters WHY I might object to the Americanisation of my club. The implication was that there was some kind of prejudice against American players being at Leeds.

I took the time and trouble to unpack what that might be about, as honestly as I could. The historical identity and culture of Leeds United are important to fans, and that is what we were discussing, at your instigation.

I'll assume that 'moving on' means we now no longer have to pander to the sensibilities of Americans who follow the club every time we want to criticise Marsch, or question the signing of a player. That'll be a relief tbh, as it was getting rather tiresome.

It's getting tense, needs some mood music

[John in Louisiana]

I've given this a lot of thought, Sara.................... (I'm bolding my responses, not because I'm yelling or angry, simply to make them easier to distinguish in the text)

Pretty much what Cjay said; you can't help wondering if there isn't an eye on pushing Leeds as the American fan's PL team of choice, which would be a business decision rather than a footballing one. Americans love a winner. We have so many front-running fans here it's absurd. Americans will love Leeds for the Americans at the club only if they're winning.

I don't think you can draw an analogy between American and European players because the former are far less common at this level. That's no slight on the players themselves, just a factual observation. Are there any other PL teams with three American first team players, alongside two American coaches and soon to be American owners? Were there no others of equivalent value and quality available? Not sure what you're driving at here when you ask that last question. Are you saying ownership should have made the conscious decision not to pursue players because of their nationality? In other words, are you saying that, all things being equal, we should choose to take a player who is not American over a player who is?

As to WHY the potential Americanisation of our club concerns me; I suppose it's primarily a fear of the loss of our historical identity. During my lifetime, many aspects of our society have become progressively more Americanised; language, film, food, music, politics... I see it as a trend towards global homogenisation, a kind of McWorld imperialism. I strongly prefer variety and diversity. No doubt you will tell me that American culture itself is founded in diversity, and it is, but that's not what is being spread by the forces of global corporatism, and US foreign policy over the last several decades.

The US as a global superpower has imposed its values and its culture everywhere it has gone. Maybe you see this as a good thing? Maybe you feel American values and culture are inherently superior, and the rest of the world should feel grateful for being subsumed in this way. If so, I see it differently, and we will have to agree to differ. Certainly I don't believe that, but I find this sentiment ironic coming from a Briton. American culture exists in the first place because the British felt their values and culture were inherently superior.

Again, please don't misinterpret this as any kind of 'animus' against Americans themselves. I listen to American music and podcasts, read American books, watch American films, have American relatives and friends. But I don't want the whole world to become America, and I don't want Leeds to become a club with an American identity. So where do you draw the line. When does Leeds' hiring of American coaches and players cross over from your love of some things American to your animus toward a club with an "American identity?" What is an "American identity" anyway?

I suspect you're not going to be able to hear this without getting defensive, but that in itself is a key to understanding what I'm saying. I couldn't imagine I'd be having this conversation with a fan from any other country. And I can't imagine your saying what you are about some other foreign ownership.

I respect your opinion greatly, Sara. I find it to be well considered and thoughtful in pretty much all instances. I do think, however, your concerns are a little too dire. Is Elland road any less British an environment today than it was ten years ago? I can't say having been there only once, but if it is it's probably due to the changing nature of Britain itself and not any American influence.

I realize I'm only anecdotal evidence and no broader conclusions can be drawn from my story, but my discovery of, and love for, Leeds United has led me to a great understanding and love of all things British. Because of Leeds United, I've learned a tremendous amount about British history, art, literature, cuisine, pub culture, and on and on. I'm an Anglophile of the highest order largely because of Leeds United (and Fairport Convention). These things work both ways.

As America starts to care more and more about football and more Americans join the ranks of the world's top players, their desire to play in the EPL is just as great as it is for players from any other nation. And it should be. The EPL is the number one sports league in the world. I would hate to think those players' ability to compete at that level would be compromised simply because of their nationality.

We know the only thing constant is change. The problem you describe is real, but it's one the entire world faces. As information moves more and more freely and quickly around the world cultural homogenization becomes more real. The question we face is how do we create a world that is integrated yet at the same time allows for the retention of all things that make our various cultures unique? It's a question we have a hard time grappling with as Americans because our culture has always been based on the assimilation of other cultures. We're the Borg of the world, and that's fine as long as the people being assimilated come here willingly. But I don't think American ownership, or players, or coaches means that Leeds are somehow less English a team than would be the case if the players and coaches were from Croatia. The fans - the true heart and soul of any team - are still English and Elland Road still sits in the heart of Yorkshire.

[Rook]

Just read on Twitter that Juventus want 35 Million Euros for him, but we've only offered 28.

Don't know if there's any truth to it or not.

[SnifferClarke]

Pray to God, McKennie dosen't dye his hair white, yellow & blue.

[mentalcase]

Pray to God, McKennie dosen't dye his hair white, yellow & blue.

I'm hoping it will be blue yellow & white

[BlackHillsPaul]

You demanded to know in capital letters WHY I might object to the Americanisation of my club. The implication was that there was some kind of prejudice against American players being at Leeds.

I took the time and trouble to unpack what that might be about, as honestly as I could. The historical identity and culture of Leeds United are important to fans, and that is what we were discussing, at your instigation.

I'll assume that 'moving on' means we now no longer have to pander to the sensibilities of Americans who follow the club every time we want to criticise Marsch, or question the signing of a player. That'll be a relief tbh, as it was getting rather tiresome.

I hadn't noticed any pandering to American sensibilities. But if you feel you have been holding back then let er rip.

[John in Louisiana]

Thank you for your considered response, John. You make some excellent points, and that is helpful to me in thinking these things through.

Firstly, I don't think (for me) it is anything particularly British, or English, that I'm trying to cling onto. I'm certainly no nationalist in that regard, although I value localised customs and culture. There is something of the outsider status at Leeds, combined with the side before self ethos; us against the world. That's what I would not like to lose if we end up attracting legions of overseas fans who chose us because we have become successful. If, as you say, American fans will only identify with us when we're winning, they will know nothing of what it was like to support the club through adversity, and so will not get that outsider mentality.

For the second part in bold, no, I'm not saying we should reject a player just because they're American, I'm saying the opposite; we shouldn't sign them in preference just because they are, because the owners wan't to build the club's profile in the States.

Third part in bold, I completely agree, so no irony needed. I have said already that I'm every bit as critical of UK exceptionalism, and the harm which flows from it, historically and in the present time. I don't think this disqualifies me from criticising the same attitude in Americans.

In answer to your question, where exactly do you draw the line, I don't know.... but I'll tell you when we get there! This has all been prompted because I have been called anti-American, by Americans, for criticising the tactical and coaching approach and abilities of Jesse Marsch, as if that somehow invalidates those criticisms. I am capable of distinguishing between my lack of faith in the manager's ability, and my broader concerns about American ownership in football, and the borg-like tendencies of American culture in general. There is much I dislike and oppose about both the record of American owners of English football clubs, and American imperialism internationally, but those are separate from my criticisms of the manager, and even (to some extent) from the cringe factor in his behaviour and persona.

Would we be having this conversation about any other foreign ownership? Yes, I'm sure, but the concerns would be different. I certainly wouldn't want to be a Newcastle fan right now, for example, and Russian involvement in clubs has also been problematic for different reasons again.

I'm glad you've found a love of Leeds United, anyway, and I hope we can continue to discuss things as events unfold without getting each other's backs up.

And thank you, Sara, for your response. You've always been civil. I try to be, and sometimes fail, but I always try.

Americans are notorious front runners when it comes to their rooting interests. It's rather infuriating at times. I have to admit I first started following Leeds during the Revie years because they were the best team, but I stuck by them through thick and thin. If American teams struggle the large majority of their "fans" will desert them only to return when things get better and claim they've been fans all along.

You put me in mind of US Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart who in the landmark obscenity case of Jacobellis v Ohio said “I have reached the conclusion . . . that under the First and Fourteenth Amendments criminal laws in this area are constitutionally limited to hard-core pornography. I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it.."

[John in Louisiana]

I'm not always civil!

Good example with the judge; I think we tend to 'know' things primarily on an intuitive and heart/ gut level, and then rationalise and justify them to others afterwards. It feels like that's what I'm doing here, anyway.

When I saw Marsch's first home game against Villa, I just knew it was s**t and wasn't going to work. That's before I'd ever heard him speak, or really thought much about any wider concerns. I tried to learn about and understand his system, and was gradually able to fill in the pieces to rationalise and justify my opinion.

I took a lot of flak for dismissing him so quickly (you're anti-American, it's a reaction to Bielsa, got to give him time, etc), but I knew it wasn't those things; I'd somehow processed what I'd seen instinctively, and reached a conclusion that I still stand by. I'm now hearing others say, with hindsight, that they'd felt the same, but didn't want to acknowledge it at the time.

The jury is still out on Marsch, I believe. The verdict will come in before the end of February, though.

[BlackHillsPaul]

As I've just said in my long reply to John, it's about the accusations of anti-Americanism against those who are critical of Marsch.

I've been trying to delineate the two things; concerns about the manager and the ownership, and the wider issues to do with America that you don't wish to discuss.

I just find it a bit odd, that's all... that this American voice has suddenly appeared in Leeds' social media to defend Marsch's Americanness!

After a cooling off period I've decided to circle back and give you a proper response.

First, I've not accused you of Anti-Americanism. But some of your comments have struck me that way. And you are one of only a handful of people on this forum that I would apply that to. With some of the others I've come to have a better understanding of where they are coming from. And perhaps that is what will emerge from this. A better understanding of your feelings and attitudes.

I do understand you not wanting to lose the identity of your club. But I think your concerns about it becoming Americanized are unfounded. You may have legitimate concerns about Russian Oligarchs or Middle Eastern oil money. But you would never accuse them of trying to steal the identity of the club. That seems to be strictly reserved for Americans. And I would point out that it has not proven to be true at other English clubs. You may not know this but Fulham FC has two American Internationals and an American Owner right now. In fact, they have had a steady stream of Americans in the side over the last 20 years with as many as 4 at one time. I don't think they have lost their English club identity. I would also point out that Americans have NOT been drawn to Fulham in droves because of the American presence. Casual fans might pay attention. But most American fans glom onto one of the big six clubs. They are notorious glory hunters. And the ultimate football snobs. Rest easy, Leeds will always have an English Club identity.

You choose to listen to American music, watch American movies, and read American books. Yet you don't want the world to become "Americanized". And we Americans are supposed to be to blame for that??? Sorry, but that one is on you. I don't care what media you consume. And you can't just separate every day Americans from the culture. We Americans ARE the culture. But we are not imposing ourselves on you. And as for the assertion of American culture being "superior"? Americans don't believe that. I don't believe that. My Greek wife doesn't believe that. So please don't project that onto us.

I'm not here to discuss politics. And yet that is probably the one part of your reply that didn't bother me. I'm not a big fan of our Federal Government and it's various agencies. And I mostly despise our Government's foreign policy. But again, we are not here to talk about any of that. It's a LUFC forum.

It was your gaslighting bullshit that really pissed me off. You don't get to decide what offends me. And then blame me for being offended. I'm not having that at all. And it isn't about having to tiptoe around American sensibilities. It's just common courtesy. Much like the way I choose to avoid "Americanisms" in my writing here on MOT.

I accept your explanation Sara. I think you were sincere. And now I have offered a sincere reply. As far as I'm concerned we can MOVE ON with a better understanding between us. And resume what I feel has been a mostly friendly discourse. That's my desire. Cheers!!

[weasel]

Paul what is the background of the American football owners of Fulham? I do think our link with the 49ers will see us being marketed a lot more in the US than Fulham have been as the 49ers people have the experience of merchandising etc. I don't see that as a bad thing as it obviously brings revenue into the club and alows us more sway to get round FFP as it is legitimate money coming in rather than owners simply pumping money in. Also no harm in us being big in the USA after all we are huge in Australia and Scandinavia amongst other places and that is a good thing.

How are Liverpool perceived in the US? They obviously have the American owners and have had success. Are they marketed much as I can't recall them having a USA player in their squad.

[BlackHillsPaul]

I'm not sure that you've understood what I mean by becoming 'Americanised'. I think John in Louisiana got it when he described American culture as being 'borg-like'. There's a world of difference between willingly listening to some American music (as I also listen to some African or Scandinavian music, for example), and the steady drift of language, culture, and society as a whole, towards the idioms, norms and characteristics of another, dominant culture.

You don't wish to discuss the political reasons why this is so, which is fair enough, but neither can you credibly deny it is the case for much of the globe. Maybe it is unfair to expect you to empathise with what this is like from the inside, but you can't simply ascribe it to the choices of individuals, as if there are no geopolitical forces at play. I don't accept that American individuals ARE the culture either, for the same reason. It really isn't that simple. I am anti American imperialism, and American enculturation is inseparable from that political process and reality. My criticisms of Russia and Saudi are different, because they don't hold the same hegemonic global position as the US.

On a club level, maybe my distaste for becoming a product aimed at the American market is rooted in the wider concerns indicated above. I don't know much about Fulham, but I'm not sure you can take them as a comparable exemplar. They are a small club, without much notable history of success, and they have the reputation of being a club for the tourists. I don't know anything about their owners, or their intentions for the club either.

I'm not sure that anything I can say here will lead to a better understanding; I can only state my thoughts as clearly and honestly as I can. I have no wish whatsoever to offend you or fall out with you.

Thanks for the reply. The idea of American Culture being "Borg-like" and the Geopolitical reasons you assign to that is a much longer conversation than I want to have here. So I will respectfully take a pass on that for now. Perhaps we will revisit that another time in another place.

I have gained a better understanding. Not sure we are closer to agreement as a result. But that's ok. I often appreciate your take on things. Sometimes I don't. Such is life in a civil society. Moving On Together...