Manchester City 2-1 Leeds Utd - Post Match Debate.

[Cjay]

Would have been a fascinating dilemma had Bielsa kept us up. Marsch supposedly waiting in the wings either way if you believe what you read. Maybe that’s another reason why Orta wanted him out. Imagine the backlash from the fans if Bielsa kept us up but was replaced by Marsch.

From what has been said by people like Dan from Square Ball the club were pretty sure Bielsa would leave

Marsch was basically Orta's obsession.

All that natural Bielsa successor stuff was pr guff (as anyone with even a basic understanding of tactics could see when you looked at the two managers tactics).

It was purely to try and make Marsch more palatable, in reality it was just Orta was obsessed with him

Valverde was seen as not an up and coming coach (so couldn't take any credit if he did well).

Didn't need the job (so not desperate and likely therefore less likely to allow Orta to dictate to him).

And could leave at any time . .

But the crux of it is they were obsessed with Marsch and there own ego

[Jaydog]

From what has been said by people like Dan from Square Ball the club were pretty sure Bielsa would leave

Marsch was basically Orta's obsession.

All that natural Bielsa successor stuff was pr guff (as anyone with even a basic understanding of tactics could see when you looked at the two managers tactics).

It was purely to try and make Marsch more palatable, in reality it was just Orta was obsessed with him

Valverde was seen as not an up and coming coach (so couldn't take any credit if he did well).

Didn't need the job (so not desperate and likely therefore less likely to allow Orta to dictate to him).

And could leave at any time . .

But the crux of it is they were obsessed with Marsch and there own ego

Pretty sure Bielsa would leave of his own accord? Or forcibly?
I think he would’ve gone after keeping us up. Job done in his eyes. Finger to Orta and away.
Sometimes you get fixated on something and can’t see the wood for the trees till someone or something makes you see otherwise. Mind you he defended Marsch & Gracia to the end so go figure

[Jaydog]

It definitely seemed like Orta was planning to install Marsch in the summer even if Bielsa had kept us up and wanted to stay. Like you say far easier for Orta to replace Bielsa when he did than if your scenario played out.

I do think a lot was down to Orta's ego and him wanting to be seen as the man who got Leeds promoted rather than it being 99.9% down to Bielsa's brilliance.

It’s the not knowing that is so frustrating.
If there’d been a fans vote and we’d known the replacement it would have been an overwhelming no to Marsch. Not everyone maybe but the majority I’d say. God only knows what Orta saw in him.

[weasel]

It’s the not knowing that is so frustrating.
If there’d been a fans vote and we’d known the replacement it would have been an overwhelming no to Marsch. Not everyone maybe but the majority I’d say. God only knows what Orta saw in him.

I'm scratching my head to be honest.

[Cjay]

Pretty sure Bielsa would leave of his own accord? Or forcibly?
I think he would’ve gone after keeping us up. Job done in his eyes. Finger to Orta and away.
Sometimes you get fixated on something and can’t see the wood for the trees till someone or something makes you see otherwise. Mind you he defended Marsch & Gracia to the end so go figure

Bit of both perhaps?

Phil has said that things weren't roses behind the scenes.

Also on a personal level I don't think health wise Bielsa had much left in him, didn't look well.

[Ackermann]

Happy to agree to disagree - what I don't like is when people put forth their opinion as if it is fact.

I think Bielsa would have kept us up but there obivously was a reasonable chance that we might have gone down.

Similar with when people go on about us not being able to defend under MB as if it is fact and yes at times we conceded a lot of goals but yet there were lots of times when we did defend well, the last 11 games of our first season in the Prem and the 2 championship seasons. First choice defence and we generally defended well, lots of injuries and disruption and we didn't defend well. It's hardly rocket science as to why we conceded lots of goals when we did.

Agree. Opinions and facts are zwo different things. Of course one can have different opinions in regard to facts. Evaluating facts is in itself mostly not a matter of facts but down to subjectivity. But I`ll let it rest at this point.

For me forseeable problems that weren`t acted on after our first successfull season in the PL wwere the small squad, knowing that injuries to vital players could have a massive impact. That no or too little money was invested in the squad basically.
If this was more down to Orta or Bielsa I don`t know. Some say Bielsa wanted more players but had a very short list of players he wanted. Others put the blame more on Orta or Radz who simply didn`t want to invest more than necessary.

So, I stay neutral in who is to blame for what...and I ask myself who besides the people actually involved have sufficient hard-core evidence to make out who is to blame for what.

ps: I would claim that the following things are facts:
1. That not strenghtening the squad was a forseeable gamble whoever was responsible for this.
2. That noone can know if we would have stayed up with Bielsa.
3. That many transfers were obviously overpriced and done out of pur desperation. (JKA, James, Firpo, Rutter).
4. That the general recruitment of players was irrational: buying players for positions we had sufficient players
and not buying players for positions we were clearly missing quality and quantity.

[weasel]

Agree. Opinions and facts are zwo different things. Of course one can have different opinions in regard to facts. Evaluating facts is in itself mostly not a matter of facts but down to subjectivity. But I`ll let it rest at this point.

For me forseeable problems that weren`t acted on after our first successfull season in the PL wwere the small squad, knowing that injuries to vital players could have a massive impact. That no or too little money was invested in the squad basically.
If this was more down to Orta or Bielsa I don`t know. Some say Bielsa wanted more players but had a very short list of players he wanted. Others put the blame more on Orta or Radz who simply didn`t want to invest more than necessary.

So, I stay neutral in who is to blame for what...and I ask myself who besides the people actually involved have sufficient hard-core evidence to make out who is to blame for what.

ps: I would claim that the following things are facts:
1. That not strenghtening the squad was a forseeable gamble whoever was responsible for this.
2. That noone can know if we would have stayed up with Bielsa.
3. That many transfers were obviously overpriced and done out of pur desperation. (JKA, James, Firpo, Rutter).
4. That the general recruitment of players was irrational: buying players for positions we had sufficient players
and not buying players for positions we were clearly missing quality and quantity.

I find myself in agreement with your points. We needed to strengthen the squad but like you say we seemed to do it in wrong areas and spent a lot of money on just a few players.

Anybody can go out and buy a player that is an international - which is what Llorente, Koch and Rodrigo all were - it hardly needs a spreadsheet and thorough research to sign players like that and we paid top dollar for them. For me if you are paying the salary of a sporting director then it should be far more about getting players like Raphinha and Gnonto, finding players before they become internationals and well before their fee is at the highest point. In buying Koch, Llorente and Rodrigo we were paying top dollar for players that were unproven in this country - would rather have seen speculative signings of players about to break out where all the stats compiled pointed to them being about to break out. In Bielsa we had a manager that had turned a very average bunch of players into far better players so it made more sense to me that we'd buy players that could be moulded by him, such as Ben White was and Jack Harrison was.

[Ackermann]

Anybody can go out and buy a player that is an international - which is what Llorente, Koch and Rodrigo all were - it hardly needs a spreadsheet and thorough research to sign players like that and we paid top dollar for them. For me if you are paying the salary of a sporting director then it should be far more about getting players like Raphinha and Gnonto, finding players before they become internationals and well before their fee is at the highest point. In buying Koch, Llorente and Rodrigo we were paying top dollar for players that were unproven in this country - would rather have seen speculative signings of players about to break out where all the stats compiled pointed to them being about to break out. In Bielsa we had a manager that had turned a very average bunch of players into far better players so it made more sense to me that we'd buy players that could be moulded by him, such as Ben White was and Jack Harrison was.

When trasfers are being rumoured or done I have a look at the fan forums of the Clubs we got the player from. I can only check on German language fan forums but can state a few things in regard to five signings:

-Not a single comment on the Red Bull Salzburg forums was bothered by losing Aaronson. And they said what we would get: a player who gives his all and runs all day long. They didn`t add that he does such like a headless chicken most times, nor that he falls over when feeling physical contact with any opposition player. (The latter maybe down to the physical difference between PL and the top Austrian league.)

-Not a single comment being sad to see Marsch leaving. Most comments on the negative side: That any coach would have had his success with Salzburg as they were way above all other teams in the Austrian league in regard to player quality. Many bemoaning that he was more about rethorics. These getting very repetitive and somewhat boring over time.

- In regard to Wöber a bit mixed opinions. Doubts in regard to his physical capabilities for the PL especially as a CD. But a well liked player - being captain for some time - wishing him all the best. But believing to have better options in their squad to replace him.

-Hoffenheim fans being rather angree to see the club selling their best talents (Rutter), a player with great potential but believing the tranfer fee to be quite a good deal, but probably not being reinvested.

-Freiburg fans in regard to Koch: A very likeable guy and with some potential but a tendency to make silly mistakes now and again. (`Bruder Leichtfuss`.) Uncertain if he could cope in the PL, but believing he had the potential to be a success. All comments very sympathetic towards him.

Of course only opinions of fans, but I hope to have given a fair (=factual) summary of them.

[weasel]

When trasfers are being rumoured or done I have a look at the fan forums of the Clubs we got the player from. I can only check on German language fan forums but can state a few things in regard to five signings:

-Not a single comment on the Red Bull Salzburg forums was bothered by losing Aaronson. And they said what we would get: a player who gives his all and runs all day long. They didn`t add that he does such like a headless chicken most times, nor that he falls over when feeling physical contact with any opposition player. (The latter maybe down to the physical difference between PL and the top Austrian league.)

-Not a single comment being sad to see Marsch leaving. Most comments on the negative side: That any coach would have had his success with Salzburg as they were way above all other teams in the Austrian league in regard to player quality. Many bemoaning that he was more about rethorics. These getting very repetitive and somewhat boring over time.

- In regard to Wöber a bit mixed opinions. Doubts in regard to his physical capabilities for the PL especially as a CD. But a well liked player - being captain for some time - wishing him all the best. But believing to have better options in their squad to replace him.

-Hoffenheim fans being rather angree to see the club selling their best talents (Rutter), a player with great potential but believing the tranfer fee to be quite a good deal, but probably not being reinvested.

-Freiburg fans in regard to Koch: A very likeable guy and with some potential but a tendency to make silly mistakes now and again. (`Bruder Leichtfuss`.) Uncertain if he could cope in the PL, but believing he had the potential to be a success. All comments very sympathetic towards him.

Of course only opinions of fans, but I hope to have given a fair (=factual) summary of them.

Love the fact you did that and for me that sort of stuff should all be part of the process when scouting a player. Find out about his talent, his potential, his work rate, his atttitude, what he is like off the pitch etc. You should find out every last thing you can about him from whatever sources and fans opinions definitely can give a bit of an insight. That is what a scouting network should be doing not just looking at some stats that can be fairly meaningless.

The Aaronsen thing is a classic case in point. Cjay had brought it up before about how everything suggests he runs around, has good ball control but poor end product. Fans see it and whilst sometimes fans can be blinkered it is still worth seeing the opinion and then seeing if what a scout sees is the same. I find it bizarre that in the last couple of days that some fnas are trying to blame Bielsa for us signing Aaronsen when everything points to Orta signing him in preparation for Marsch taking over - as seen with Rutter though Orta tried to get him in as early as possible so we wouldn't miss out on him and no doubt we overpaid just to get RB to agree to sell him to us in the summer. Note the video clip that went about of Orta singing about Aaronsen to fans before the season had ended - all about him stroking his own ego.

[Ackermann]

That is what a scouting network should be doing not just looking at some stats that can be fairly meaningless.

One would assume, considering the budget/turnover a club in the PL has, that the scouting system would be worth spending 20 million per year. Orta was the main man, but he must have relied on a scouting system with people working for Leeds able to seek and find promising young players or players with real potential. Not saying that a Rutter has no potential, but a good scouting net-work surely must be a huge part of clubs like Leeds who try to follow the Leicester model. (Not sure what went wrong with them...if the tragic death of their owner implied less investement?)
But then I have no idea how the scouting system at Leeds works. How come it that Brentford have been able to recruit players and sell with huge profit. Partly down to luck I assume, but certainly not only. (On the other hand I believe Leicester winning the PL title was down to x factors coming together in Leicesters favour equaling the odds of maybe 1 in 100. Certainly you need to get lucky for such success. Kind of proves that the Leicester `model` depends on getting lucky, besides all the other factors one can install to optimize such chances of being successfull. I believe you may buy 10 promising looking young players - under 20 years old - and on average maybe 2-3 will prove to progress as hoped they would). But if on top of that you make huge mistakes, you have no chance to improve in the long run. And: you also must invest in proven players now and then. Proven in a way you can rely on them being capable to be successfull in the PL. (As Newcastle did by strenghtening their defense).

[Kennyb41]

No one can know if we would've gone down with Bert, absolutely NO ONE.

We now seem to have a Doctor on the thread judging Berts heart condition and ailments without the medical qualifications but writing it as a given

Bert would NEVER have left us in a million years, he had a plan and a vision, the only person to drive him out the club or force his hand to leave was the monkey with a pin.

Mystic Meg will now hand over her ball to the 'hindsight believe everything you read in the papers kids' Cjay and The Akkers, mind ya Knackers lads.

Apparently Bert will be dropping dead around 4.24pm on Thursday 29th June.

Kin braindead the lot of ya. (eta - those that wanted Bert gone )

The full and only source of Ortas scouting system : Top trumps cards. End of. Period.

[Kennyb41]

Wolves and others " Coco the clown's looking for players"......." Just tell him we've got loads of interest from Barcelona, Bayern and PSG for Costa, Douglas etc, then name ya price and some"

[Ackermann]

No one can know if we would've gone down with Bert, absolutely NO ONE.

Come on, no need to get your knickers twisted. So who do you know of who knows that we would have stayed up with Biesa?
You? Bielsa? (He never would have claimed such because he knew he couldn`t guarantee such. After all he wasn`t totally deluded. I think we can agree on that...or maybe not. Whatever).

Ever heard of the saying `absence of evidence isn`t the evidence of absence`? Something to think about. :-) ...maybe a bit of a brain twister in this context though.

ps: Of course `our` three stooges are the reason why all this shyte is happening. I doubt anyone will argue against that. So lets just agree on that. If you intend to stir the pot maybe try WACCOE...enough spiteful reactions you will receive on that forum.

Cheers

[weasel]

I believe you may buy 10 promising looking young players - under 20 years old - and on average maybe 2-3 will prove to progress as hoped they would). But if on top of that you make huge mistakes, you have no chance to improve in the long run. And: you also must invest in proven players now and then. Proven in a way you can rely on them being capable to be successfull in the PL. (As Newcastle did by strenghtening their defense).

That's it precisely - the young players are a big gamble, loads of young players have looked world beaters and then done nothing. If you pay say £2m per player and buy 10 players and 2 or 3 turn into good players than it's probably a good return. You've spent £20m and maybe have 3 players worth £20m each - even given the wages of the rest of the players that don't make it and the cost of running the academy, youth staff etc it's still a good return.

Spend £20m to £30m on 10 youngsters and even if 3 make it then there is no profit unless those 3 players are worth £100m each. Even if you recoup a bit by selling the ones who don't make it you're still going to be struggling.

Like you say as well you also need to focus on the here and now and get proven players. We paid top price for proven players in Koch and Llorente but neither were proven in the premier league. Contrast that to Newcastle, like you did, and they brought in players that were proven in the premier league to sort out there defence. They got the balance right and gave themselves the platform and then bought the likes of Guimares and Isaak as flair players as they could take the risk as they had strengthened where it really mattered. Yes easy for cynics to say they had the money but they haven't gone crazy with it. £10m on Pope looks a bargain even compared to the £7m we paid for Messlier.

[Ackermann]

Like you say as well you also need to focus on the here and now and get proven players. We paid top price for proven players in Koch and Llorente but neither were proven in the premier league. Contrast that to Newcastle, like you did, and they brought in players that were proven in the premier league to sort out there defence. They got the balance right and gave themselves the platform and then bought the likes of Guimares and Isaak as flair players as they could take the risk as they had strengthened where it really mattered. Yes easy for cynics to say they had the money but they haven't gone crazy with it. £10m on Pope looks a bargain even compared to the £7m we paid for Messlier.

Pope for 10 million is the luck that comes your way now and then. Newcastle in need of a better keeper with prospect of almost guaranteed success in the future (and high wages) combined with Burnley forced to sell a proven gk for a rather low fee. And whoever was in charge of transfers at Newcastle got it spot on and this not only in hindsight I would dare to say. Build from the back isn`t just a cliche. Llorente was injury prone and that was forseeable going to be a problem. Koch I think we legit could have expected more of taking into account his young age and potential improvement. 14 million in my eyes not necessarily overpriced. But non the less not proved in the PL. (And physically not the strongest). Of course every single CD we have was combined with an equally poor CD. Wöber and Koch looked o.k. for a few games I thought. This probably down to Wöber being able to organize the defense better than any of the others who virtually never seem to be communicating with each other or giving commands. Struijk in regard to this like a boy in a mans body.

[Kennyb41]

Come on, no need to get your knickers twisted. So who do you know of who knows that we would have stayed up with Biesa?
You? Bielsa? (He never would have claimed such because he knew he couldn`t guarantee such. After all he wasn`t totally deluded. I think we can agree on that...or maybe not. Whatever).

Ever heard of the saying `absence of evidence isn`t the evidence of absence`? Something to think about. :-) ...maybe a bit of a brain twister in this context though.

ps: Of course `our` three stooges are the reason why all this shyte is happening. I doubt anyone will argue against that. So lets just agree on that. If you intend to stir the pot maybe try WACCOE...enough spiteful reactions you will receive on that forum.

Cheers

You said we were going to be relegated with Bert...what's your evidence or absence there of, were we cast adrift or 5th from bottom ?

Kettle pot black ?