When did it all go wrong?

[Jaydog]

Must admit I thought that was the case Tyzy.

Would have been an interesting scenario. Marsch was booked in either way if you believe the rumours.
Would have gone down well with the fans I’m sure

[Kennyb41]

I think Valverde was a possibility in the past.

Phil Hay doesn't tend to drop these names if they are fantasy so it's significant the only name mentioned in regards to an alternative to Marsch was Valverde.

And reliable Spanizh media sources have said we had him in mind before to.

But it seems Orta was absolutely obsessed with Marsch.

Valverde wasn't the sort of ego massage Orta would want

If he came in then he gets all the credit.

DOF appoints experienced and proven manager who does well . . Not much of a headline for Orta

Orta much like with his signings always had his image at the forefront of his mind imo.

Oh ffs, VALVERDE ! VALVERDE !

It doesn't matter one jot.

Pep summed it up and no manager in the world could manage Ortas shite...." Leeds would still be in the Championship "

Now that's from Pep fer gawds sake, and wrack your brains why he said that huh ?

Do you think it was because Pep could do a better job, or anywhere near as good, NO HE COULD NOT, and it's the highest praise in just a few words, only Sara could use fewer.

[Cjay]

Hey ! An even better one : Bert and Pep inherit the same set of shite Bert inherited at Leeds?

Who gets them playing as a team faster Bert or Pep ?

Pep . . . .

A manager whose tactical skill and knowledge has been praised by some of the greatest managers of all time (including Bielsa).

A manager whose man management skills and ability to nurture talent has been praised by some of the greatest players of all time.

A manager whose standards are so high he gives his record breaking number 9 a public bollocking for not taking a penalty game where City were under as much h pressure as a training match.

If you don't think Pep could do as well as Bielsa if not better then you are doing Pep a serious injustice.

You don't achieve what he has if you aren't exceptional in every way.

You will bring up his comment about Championship probably, Pep is modest.

I have no doubt he could do what Bielsa did if not better

Man is a genius

[Jaydog]

First of all you ALL know what my answer is, it's 100% correct and a given, and it's the moment we let Bert go, simple.

I could've chose any number of quotes but chose this one because of the highlighted bit.

First of all, I never doubted him for one second.

Did i wonder if we might go down? Yes i did if he didn't get his key players back.

As long as Bert stayed was i bothered if we were relegated ?...Yes i was, it's relegation innit and nobody wants that, but i know 100% in my heart and mind he would've stayed and brought us straight back up, but we needed to sack Clown A asap or even Bert was up against it, plus, he wouldn't have been relegated with his key players back.

Wouldn’t have stayed unless Orta had gone as he had Marsch waiting in the wings. Orta wouldn’t have gone as Radz would have stuck by his (Orta’s) judgement.
So the scenario is that Bielsa keeps us up and gets sacked for Marsch. Cue World War 3 at ER

[Jaydog]

Pep . . . .

A manager whose tactical skill and knowledge has been praised by some of the greatest managers of all time (including Bielsa).

A manager whose man management skills and ability to nurture talent has been praised by some of the greatest players of all time.

A manager whose standards are so high he gives his record breaking number 9 a public bollocking for not taking a penalty game where City were under as much h pressure as a training match.

If you don't think Pep could do as well as Bielsa if not better then you are doing Pep a serious injustice.

You don't achieve what he has if you aren't exceptional in every way.

You will bring up his comment about Championship probably, Pep is modest.

I have no doubt he could do what Bielsa did if not better

Man is a genius

The reaction to the penalty incident was a classic. They were like little schoolboys. But it was stupid though and I only wish we’d rubbed their noses in it.
A genius. Maybe. But the difference now at that level is so stark where the difference in money, players etc is completely ridiculous. It’s like GP racing where someone has a top car and the rest have mobility scooters. I put that analogy in for Weasel but he’s probably too busy trying on dungarees to notice

[Cjay]

The reaction to the penalty incident was a classic. They were like little schoolboys. But it was stupid though and I only wish we’d rubbed their noses in it.
A genius. Maybe. But the difference now at that level is so stark where the difference in money, players etc is completely ridiculous. It’s like GP racing where someone has a top car and the rest have mobility scooters. I put that analogy in for Weasel but he’s probably too busy trying on dungarees to notice

The money thing will always get thrown at Pep but people don't look at the other side.

Convincing world class players, pampered multi millionaires to put the effort in to put the sweat and hard yards in week after week game after game and giving them hell if they don't knowing they have the respect for you to not be on the phone to there agent is not easy.

Plenty of managers haven't been able to do it certainly not to his standard including Bielsa at Argentina.

He won't ever escape the money thing.

But that Barcelona team he inherited wasn't loaded with expensive players.

Pique was a 22 year old unable to get a place at Manure

Xavi was a youth product
Puyol was a youth product
Messi was a 21 year old.
Bojan was a teenage youth product
Pedro was a 20 year old youth product.
Busquets was a youth product.

He jettisoned the big names at the time people forget.

Thuram, Deco, Ronaldinho, Zambrotta, all big world stars he got rid season 1.

He doesn't get the credit he deserves for his Barcelona job imo in season one because the stars became icons

But Messi, Busquets, Pique even Iniesta and Xavi weren't the super stars they are now before Pep.

[danhirons]

No, it's not saying that, it's saying that his decision making is motivated more by potential personal profit than by the long term interests of the club... eg, a recruiting policy based on resale value rather than building a coherent squad, and holding on to the club beyond his ability to progress it further (something he stated he would not do).

ok, makes more sense!

[danhirons]

All of this ^

Answer me this anyone ?

The current Citeh players and team : Who dya think could make them play the better football after 6 months in charge of them, Pep or Bert ?

I rest my case M'lud.

surely you're a troll? otherwise I'm pretty scared by some of the stuff written in your posts...

[Jaydog]

The money thing will always get thrown at Pep but people don't look at the other side.

Convincing world class players, pampered multi millionaires to put the effort in to put the sweat and hard yards in week after week game after game and giving them hell if they don't knowing they have the respect for you to not be on the phone to there agent is not easy.

Plenty of managers haven't been able to do it certainly not to his standard including Bielsa at Argentina.

He won't ever escape the money thing.

But that Barcelona team he inherited wasn't loaded with expensive players.

Pique was a 22 year old unable to get a place at Manure

Xavi was a youth product
Puyol was a youth product
Messi was a 21 year old.
Bojan was a teenage youth product
Pedro was a 20 year old youth product.
Busquets was a youth product.

He jettisoned the big names at the time people forget.

Thuram, Deco, Ronaldinho, Zambrotta, all big world stars he got rid season 1.

He doesn't get the credit he deserves for his Barcelona job imo in season one because the stars became icons

But Messi, Busquets, Pique even Iniesta and Xavi weren't the super stars they are now before Pep.

Fair enough. Probably lazy reporting from me in fairness.
Wouldn’t mind seeing him at ER for a couple of seasons. He’s on the shortlist apparently

[Kennyb41]

The money thing will always get thrown at Pep but people don't look at the other side.

Convincing world class players, pampered multi millionaires to put the effort in to put the sweat and hard yards in week after week game after game and giving them hell if they don't knowing they have the respect for you to not be on the phone to there agent is not easy.

Plenty of managers haven't been able to do it certainly not to his standard including Bielsa at Argentina.

He won't ever escape the money thing.

But that Barcelona team he inherited wasn't loaded with expensive players.

Pique was a 22 year old unable to get a place at Manure

Xavi was a youth product
Puyol was a youth product
Messi was a 21 year old.
Bojan was a teenage youth product
Pedro was a 20 year old youth product.
Busquets was a youth product.

He jettisoned the big names at the time people forget.

Thuram, Deco, Ronaldinho, Zambrotta, all big world stars he got rid season 1.

He doesn't get the credit he deserves for his Barcelona job imo in season one because the stars became icons

But Messi, Busquets, Pique even Iniesta and Xavi weren't the super stars they are now before Pep.

And something you conveniently like to forget.

He went to Bert for advice.

[Kennyb41]

surely you're a troll? otherwise I'm pretty scared by some of the stuff written in your posts...

Now that suggests you think Pep.

And that's why folk like you just don't get Bert.

[Cjay]

Fair enough. Probably lazy reporting from me in fairness.
Wouldn’t mind seeing him at ER for a couple of seasons. He’s on the shortlist apparently

Bring Messi, Busquets and iniesta with him for a EFL Championship swansong

[Cjay]

And something you conveniently like to forget.

He went to Bert for advice.

Wrong again Kenneth

viewtopic.php?p=686712&hilit=Almeyda#p686712

I gave Bielsa plenty of credit.

[Jaydog]

Bring Messi, Busquets and iniesta with him for a EFL Championship swansong

Roberts, Roca & Forshaw.

[weasel]

Did I dream this thought or was Bielsa leaving at the end of the season anyway and Marsch was his replacement, it all just happened a little sooner than expected ? So all this talk of Bielsa carrying on working miracles just wouldn't be the case .

I got the feeling that the club tried to present this as if it was fact so as to justify their decision, oh he was going anyway so why not get Marsch in early. It is clear the club, especially Orta, wanted Marsch in and just like how we overpay on players they became s desperate to get him in and were worried someone else would snap him up. I saw no indication that Bielsa was more or less likely to leave than in any of his previous seasons and given what we know has happened since, that he was prepared to take the Bournemouth and Everton jobs, it would make him being about to leave us less likely as it takes away the main reasons that you'd have thought he might leave, i.e. not wanting to live in England any more (wanting to be closer to home) or not wanting to be a manager any more.

[Kennyb41]

Wrong again Kenneth

viewtopic.php?p=686712&hilit=Almeyda#p686712

I gave Bielsa plenty of credit.

'Bielsa’s ‘murderball’ sessions (an energy-sapping form of the game in which the ball is constantly in play) have become infamous at Thorp Arch. Despite this, the majority of players form strong attachments to him. Gabriel Batistuta, Mauricio Pochettino, Benjamin Mendy, Aymeric Laporte and Diego Simeone all cite Bielsa as a primary influence on their understanding of the game.

It was Batistuta who encouraged Pep Guardiola to fly to Argentina and meet Bielsa before embarking on a managerial career of his own. The current Man City gaffer did just that and the 11-hour discussion between the two tacticians has since passed into folklore.

[Kennyb41]

'It’s said the pair made David Trueba, a Spanish film director and mutual friend who was also in attendance, stand between chairs as they attempted to plot out moves, patterns and formations with whatever was at hand. Years later, after Guardiola had overseen perhaps the greatest club side of all time in the form of Barcelona 2009 - 2011, he declared Bielsa was the best coach in the world.

[Kennyb41]

Bilbao, November 2011
The San Mamés heaved and the heavens opened. The players of Athletic Bilbao and Barcelona dragged themselves from the field, their bodies soaked in rain and sweat. It finished 2-2, Lionel Messi poaching an equaliser in injury time: for Athletic a triumph cruelly snatched away; for Barcelona two precious points dropped in the title race. And yet this was a time not to mourn, but to rejoice.

A “hymn to football”, Pep Guardiola called it. “It was lovely,” Marcelo Bielsa agreed. Certainly it stands as one of the greatest La Liga games of the last decade, not because it was flawless but because it was the opposite. There were slips, mistakes, squelching tackles, a late red card, flashes of genius, tactical flourishes, lightning breaks. And through it all the rain clattered down, and through it all both teams ran and chased and pressed and swarmed as if this were their last night on Earth.

On the touchline, Bielsa and Guardiola tenderly clasped hands, as if sharing in a special, powerful miracle. Your players are beasts, Guardiola said to Bielsa. So are yours, Bielsa replied. Later Guardiola would testify that his Barcelona side – one of the greatest to play the game – had never come up against an opponent this intense, this suffocatingly aggressive.

[weasel]

In terms of Pep it would be interesting to see how he'd do at a lesser club. For all Cjay points out he brought in the young players at Barca it is because he had already coached them as he had been the U21 manager. He had already got them playing how he wanted and knew what they could do. It wasn't like going into Leeds and transforming players who had never played that way in their lifes. It is a bit similar to how when David O Leary took over he knew what he had got in the youth side as he had been managing them, he knew they could play they way he wanted them to because they had been doing so.

When Pep went to City in the first season they finished 3rd. Guardiola needed to buy 3 full backs, a new keeper and various other players to make his system work. He didn't simply make do with the Coopers, Alioskis, Dallases etc. He said you can't do enough of what I want so f*ck off and I will buy someone for £50m+ who can.

You go on about flair players working hard for him but that is because they know if they don't he won't play them. At most clubs the manager would be afraid to drop the big name flair player, at City he can do that because he has someone just as good to replace them. Which other clubs would buy a player, Grealish, for a club record fee and then hardly play him for the first season? He can do that becuase he knows his team will still be phenomenal without that player. So the player can either sulk and f*ck off (and simply be replaced) or the player can get as fit as he can and do what Pep demands. I hardly think that if Bielsa decided not to play Raphinha for the first season after we'd bought him that he would have stuck around.

It is like comparing apples and donkeys. Bielsa would probably struggle at a top club with egos etc and Pep would probably struggle where players weren't able to play like robots of his creation.

[Kennyb41]

Not from the rags you use but The Guardian.

Over the years, as Guardiola established himself as one of the world’s great coaches, Bielsa would strongly play down his own influence. “If there is a manager who is independent in his ideas, it is Guardiola,” he said on Thursday. But 14 years ago, recently retired and still with a little hair, it was Guardiola – on the advice of Gabriel Batistuta, his former teammate at Al-Ahli – who made the pilgrimage to Bielsa’s ranch in the Argentinian countryside. It was a meeting that may well have changed the history of football.

From noon to midnight, over grilled asado meat, they talked much as their teams would play: intensely, with passion and complexity and no quarter given. Occasionally Bielsa’s computer would be required to solve disputes. Occasionally they would rearrange the furniture in order to demonstrate a tactical point. Finally, in the early hours of the morning, Guardiola returned to his hotel in Buenos Aires, exhausted and yet reborn. He texted a friend: “I’ve just met the person who knows the most about football.”