Marc Roca

[BlackHillsPaul]

How has Klich looked movement wise? I ask this because a lot of fans wrote him off because he'd soldiered on with a hip injury so hadn't looked as fluid in his movement. I did think though that after a full summer break, his first full summer break for a long time after having covid shortened seasons and international matches, that he may have been back to normal but we never really got to see enough of him under Marsch to tell.

Joe and I are both DC United supporters. And he touched on some good points. I'll just add a bit here.

I don't think he is moving as fluidly as he did 3 years ago in the Championship. But Klich was never the most athletic guy on the pitch. It was always his football brain and technical abliity that made him effective. It suits him well in MLS. I've not noticed any after effects of the hip injury.

Klich was never a Premier League level player. He was always a Championship, MLS, Eredivisie level player. His game would absolutely THRIVE in Mexico which is slower paced but highly technical.

Roca is also not a Premier League level player. My point was that I would rather have Klich than Roca.

I would have liked to see how a midfield 3 of Klich, Adams, McKennie might have worked. Alas, it was not meant to be...

[GreennWhite]

Joe and I are both DC United supporters. And he touched on some good points. I'll just add a bit here.

I don't think he is moving as fluidly as he did 3 years ago in the Championship. But Klich was never the most athletic guy on the pitch. It was always his football brain and technical abliity that made him effective. It suits him well in MLS. I've not noticed any after effects of the hip injury.

Klich was never a Premier League level player. He was always a Championship, MLS, Eredivisie level player. His game would absolutely THRIVE in Mexico which is slower paced but highly technical.

Roca is also not a Premier League level player. My point was that I would rather have Klich than Roca.

I would have liked to see how a midfield 3 of Klich, Adams, McKennie might have worked. Alas, it was not meant to be...

I'm in America at the moment ( just outside Philly ) and went to see the Union play DC last week. Have to say it was a poor game. Plenty of effort on show with the odd bit of quality but not as much quality as i was expecting to see.
Klich as you say stood out because of the tactical brain he has, as you mentioned, but otherwise had a quiet game. Think it was around the 70 minute mark when they took him off. On this showing he certainly didn't look like someone who could last 90 minutes.
People on here last season were talking about a possible transfer target in the Union left back, Kai Wagner. Was interested to see how he played. As far as actual defending was concerned he was decent enough but seems to like to give opponents plenty of time on the ball to make decisions, he doesn't seem to want to try and close them down quickly enough for me. Having said that he does has a quality left foot. He played some lovely passes to players feet and into space for them to run onto.
Impossible to say on one viewing and I'm no expert but he didn't strike me as Premiership quality, but good enough for the Championship.

[JoeDenver]

I'm in America at the moment ( just outside Philly ) and went to see the Union play DC last week. Have to say it was a poor game. Plenty of effort on show with the odd bit of quality but not as much quality as i was expecting to see.
Klich as you say stood out because of the tactical brain he has, as you mentioned, but otherwise had a quiet game. Think it was around the 70 minute mark when they took him off. On this showing he certainly didn't look like someone who could last 90 minutes.
People on here last season were talking about a possible transfer target in the Union left back, Kai Wagner. Was interested to see how he played. As far as actual defending was concerned he was decent enough but seems to like to give opponents plenty of time on the ball to make decisions, he doesn't seem to want to try and close them down quickly enough for me. Having said that he does has a quality left foot. He played some lovely passes to players feet and into space for them to run onto.
Impossible to say on one viewing and I'm no expert but he didn't strike me as Premiership quality, but good enough for the Championship.

That was a pretty awful game. DCU with loads of chances but couldn’t put any of them away. It’s still early in the season and teams are still figuring things out, but glad you were able to take in the game. Philly has a nice stadium there in nearby Chester, PA.

[BlackHillsPaul]

I'm in America at the moment ( just outside Philly ) and went to see the Union play DC last week. Have to say it was a poor game. Plenty of effort on show with the odd bit of quality but not as much quality as i was expecting to see.
Klich as you say stood out because of the tactical brain he has, as you mentioned, but otherwise had a quiet game. Think it was around the 70 minute mark when they took him off. On this showing he certainly didn't look like someone who could last 90 minutes.
People on here last season were talking about a possible transfer target in the Union left back, Kai Wagner. Was interested to see how he played. As far as actual defending was concerned he was decent enough but seems to like to give opponents plenty of time on the ball to make decisions, he doesn't seem to want to try and close them down quickly enough for me. Having said that he does has a quality left foot. He played some lovely passes to players feet and into space for them to run onto.
Impossible to say on one viewing and I'm no expert but he didn't strike me as Premiership quality, but good enough for the Championship.

I agree with your assessment of that match. Boring and not very well played. A poor advertisement for MLS.

I was one of the ones talking about Kai Wagner because we had been linked to him. And he was tearing it up last season. So far this season he looks a shell of that form. I'm glad we didn't sign him.

[weasel]

I agree with your assessment of that match. Boring and not very well played. A poor advertisement for MLS.

I was one of the ones talking about Kai Wagner because we had been linked to him. And he was tearing it up last season. So far this season he looks a shell of that form. I'm glad we didn't sign him.

Thanks for the input on Klich everyone. I'm glad he's doing well, always came accross as a decent guy.

Your second point, about Wagner, is interesting given the failings of our head of recruitment. It would be interesting to see a list of all the players recommended by folks on here and then mark them as to whether they'd have been a good signing for us or not - I would base this solely on players who have moved to another club though and how well they are doing. Cjay's list would be very interesting as he has recommended a lot of players.

From my own memory, and it isn't the best, I wasn't impressed when I saw video clips of quite a few players we were linked with. CDK is the big one that sprang to mind that I immediately thought no as I thought he looked like a player that everything had come too easy for and how would he do if he started to struggle a bit, a big fish in a small pond, flat track bully etc. Gnonto was the big one that I really hoped we'd sign after seeing him play for just a few minutes, could see the footballing brain as well as a good attitude and determination - seemed the oppositie of CDK in that it looked ike he had to fight for everything he got rather than it being handed to him on a plate.

[BlackHillsPaul]

Thanks for the input on Klich everyone. I'm glad he's doing well, always came accross as a decent guy.

Your second point, about Wagner, is interesting given the failings of our head of recruitment. It would be interesting to see a list of all the players recommended by folks on here and then mark them as to whether they'd have been a good signing for us or not - I would base this solely on players who have moved to another club though and how well they are doing. Cjay's list would be very interesting as he has recommended a lot of players.

From my own memory, and it isn't the best, I wasn't impressed when I saw video clips of quite a few players we were linked with. CDK is the big one that sprang to mind that I immediately thought no as I thought he looked like a player that everything had come too easy for and how would he do if he started to struggle a bit, a big fish in a small pond, flat track bully etc. Gnonto was the big one that I really hoped we'd sign after seeing him play for just a few minutes, could see the footballing brain as well as a good attitude and determination - seemed the oppositie of CDK in that it looked ike he had to fight for everything he got rather than it being handed to him on a plate.

I think that would be interesting. I tend to limit my recommendations to players from the Americas as that is the market I know best. I recommended that Leeds sign two players. Kai Wagner did not make a move and has regressed a bit. Although that could be the hangover from a highly anticipated transfer that didn't happen. Taty Castellanos has found success in La Liga with 13 league goals in 31 starts for Girona. He started a bit slow but the 2nd half of the season he has been very good. I think he would have been a good signing for us.

[Leeds1000]

I don't watch enough footy tbh. Leeds and only Leeds and even that is is stretching it calling it football at the minute.

[DDB220]

Never watch YouTube to assess a player or rely truly on stats.

To truly assess a player you need to go and watch them live, because body language, personality on the grass and off the grass, work ethic and what they do off the ball is just as important as what they do in possession.

Suggestions by armchair scouts are just punts. Some more educated than others but still punts. A lucky guess does not make anyone an expert, it is football manager take 2.

[JoeDenver]

Never watch YouTube to assess a player or rely truly on stats.

To truly assess a player you need to go and watch them live, because body language, personality on the grass and off the grass, work ethic and what they do off the ball is just as important as what they do in possession.

Suggestions by armchair scouts are just punts. Some more educated than others but still punts. A lucky guess does not make anyone an expert, it is football manager take 2.

I have an unorthodox idea about evaluating talent that has probably gone the way of the dodo bird, but it’s one my grandfather used to evaluate talent back when he was a coach for the Los Angeles Rams (NFL…American professional football) in the 50’s. Give the level of play, regardless of sport, I suspect it still has merit. In a nutshell, when evaluating players, he always wanted to see players at their absolute worst…effectively a low-lights film. That, he contended, would tell him more about the player than the highlight reel.

I think, in a general sense, he was really after their resolve under trying circumstances. If they had a poor play, he wanted to know the context behind the poor play, i.e.,was it a teammate’s blown assignment that led to the player’s poor play…via a domino effect where they were left hanging…or was the player truly at fault? (Ala Firpo’s tripping over himself led to Wober’s overcompensating that caused a penalty). And if the player was at fault, how did the player respond to the setback as play later unfolded (did he keep trying, or did he just give up)? And how did a poor play affect his level of play later in the game? Did he let that one play destroy his confidence?

God, my grandfather could cite so many more inferences about whether a player “had it” from the lowlight film. He used to talk about this stuff endlessly to me when I was young and I feel I’m only scraping the surface, but this topic of a lowlight film was definitely one of his “stump speeches” that he repeated several times when growing up…probably because he didn’t want me to be intimidated by supposedly good players on other teams. But I feel the analogy fits here.

Given the high standard of play he was coaching at, I can’t help but think of its applicability here. I think too many people get sucked into the dream or the possibilities from a player’s highlights (especially ownership). I think there’s merit to evaluating the lowlights with similar scrutiny. Professional athletes are never going to be able to sustain an 8-10 rating every match, regardless of who they are (Ronaldo, Messi, Kaka, etc.). I think the lowlights help place things in a proper context for assessing the average output of the player. A piece of diligence that was likely missed by Orta.

My two cents…

[weasel]

I have an unorthodox idea about evaluating talent that has probably gone the way of the dodo bird, but it’s one my grandfather used to evaluate talent back when he was a coach for the Los Angeles Rams (NFL…American professional football) in the 50’s. Give the level of play, regardless of sport, I suspect it still has merit. In a nutshell, when evaluating players, he always wanted to see players at their absolute worst…effectively a low-lights film. That, he contended, would tell him more about the player than the highlight reel.

I think, in a general sense, he was really after their resolve under trying circumstances. If they had a poor play, he wanted to know the context behind the poor play, i.e.,was it a teammate’s blown assignment that led to the player’s poor play…via a domino effect where they were left hanging…or was the player truly at fault? (Ala Firpo’s tripping over himself led to Wober’s overcompensating that caused a penalty). And if the player was at fault, how did the player respond to the setback as play later unfolded (did he keep trying, or did he just give up)? And how did a poor play affect his level of play later in the game? Did he let that one play destroy his confidence?

God, my grandfather could cite so many more inferences about whether a player “had it” from the lowlight film. He used to talk about this stuff endlessly to me when I was young and I feel I’m only scraping the surface, but this topic of a lowlight film was definitely one of his “stump speeches” that he repeated several times when growing up…probably because he didn’t want me to be intimidated by supposedly good players on other teams. But I feel the analogy fits here.

Given the high standard of play he was coaching at, I can’t help but think of its applicability here. I think too many people get sucked into the dream or the possibilities from a player’s highlights (especially ownership). I think there’s merit to evaluating the lowlights with similar scrutiny. Professional athletes are never going to be able to sustain an 8-10 rating every match, regardless of who they are (Ronaldo, Messi, Kaka, etc.). I think the lowlights help place things in a proper context for assessing the average output of the player. A piece of diligence that was likely missed by Orta.

My two cents…

Excellent post and I do think with Orta he was the complete opposite, taking every player as if they could become the player that their potential said they could be. The player that was highly rated but failed at Barca (Firpo), the player that was highly rated but failed at Barca and Bayern (Roca), all the young players that he signed initially and we got excited about as they had come through the youth ranks at Barca, Real MAdrid etc. The player who looked amazing as a youth but career had stalled (JKA) and then paying excessively for players like Rutter because of the belief that the occasional flashes of brilliance show he could be amazing and ignoring the matches where he has done nothing and looked lost.

Like I've said previously though without proper coaching why would we suddenly unlock the players potential that others couldn't? Sure Bielsa managed it en masse but what has been our level of coaching since he left? We have a futsal coach managing our U23s for christ's sake and whilst he might be a nice guy is he really the guy that is going to convert potential into superstar? Do any of our U23s looks closer to the first team than they did a year ago, or 2 years ago? The only youths that have made the step up have been with us for 3 or 4 years such as Gelhardt, Greenwood and Struyjk and none of them have established themselves as first team starters With those 3 it seems like they benefitted from Bielsa's coaching but their progress has stalled since he left, none of those 3 appear any better than they were in February of last year and Gelhardt and Struyjk have probably gone backwards.

[Cjay]

Excellent post and I do think with Orta he was the complete opposite, taking every player as if they could become the player that their potential said they could be. The player that was highly rated but failed at Barca (Firpo), the player that was highly rated but failed at Barca and Bayern (Roca), all the young players that he signed initially and we got excited about as they had come through the youth ranks at Barca, Real MAdrid etc. The player who looked amazing as a youth but career had stalled (JKA) and then paying excessively for players like Rutter because of the belief that the occasional flashes of brilliance show he could be amazing and ignoring the matches where he has done nothing and looked lost.

Like I've said previously though without proper coaching why would we suddenly unlock the players potential that others couldn't? Sure Bielsa managed it en masse but what has been our level of coaching since he left? We have a futsal coach managing our U23s for christ's sake and whilst he might be a nice guy is he really the guy that is going to convert potential into superstar? Do any of our U23s looks closer to the first team than they did a year ago, or 2 years ago? The only youths that have made the step up have been with us for 3 or 4 years such as Gelhardt, Greenwood and Struyjk and none of them have established themselves as first team starters With those 3 it seems like they benefitted from Bielsa's coaching but their progress has stalled since he left, none of those 3 appear any better than they were in February of last year and Gelhardt and Struyjk have probably gone backwards.

Think Orta has sort of imposter syndrome?

He knows deep down that he hasn't the skills or knowledge to be in the position he is in. He knows he got there built on the reputation of others (Monchi) and through his own ability to blag and sound knowledgeable to people who haven't the knowledge themselves to see through him.

But he also has an ego the size of the moon and is driven by the desire to prove that nagging voice wrong.

And thus every decision he makes has his own interests at the forefront of his mind.

So if he signed for example Viktor Gyökeres in January and Gyökeres goes on and did well for us this season say gets us 6 or 7 goals or assists and earns us a few points and keeps us up then where is the credit for Orta?

Nobody would consider signing one of the top players in the Championship a visionary move. So Orta would get very little credit.

But Rutter, if he comes in and does well (despite all the evidence that wasn't going to happen) then it would be well done Victor, what a visionary, what an eye for talent.

And he could brag and do interviews and it would give him a sense of validation.

So he picks the option that is best for Victor Orta and his ego and his reputation.

And you can see that in all his signings really.

Marc Roca made no sense in a pressing team, his skill was ball progression, he gets the ball forward quickly and well (which tbf Marsch likes).

But he can't press, it's well known mobility is his biggest weakness (and Orta would have known that from his analysis tools).

But Roca was at one point seen as a genuine potential replacement for the legendary Sergio Busquets in the Spanish team, he was that well thought of.

Could Orta have signed a better more tactically sensible fit? Absolutely.

But Orta being the man to restore a former Spanish wonderkid to his former glory, that's a great way to gain credibility in your home country.

Probably get interviews with Marca and AS and oh well done Victor.

It's the same with Firpo.

It's the same with JKA.

They are all players who weren't ideal tactical fits but had the worked out then Orta has proven something to himself and everyone.

Even Skubala is the same

Appointing a Futsal Coach to coach your u21s made no sense.

It's ridiculous when you think about it.

It would be like the Boston Red Sox appointing the manager of the USA rounders team.

Skubala can't coach and improve u21s when they have more experience in football than he does.

But again if it works out then Orta is a visionary and oh so clever etc etc.

I think that has become the issue.

It stopped being about what was best for Leeds United and became what would make Victor Orta look best

[weasel]

Think Orta has sort of imposter syndrome?

He knows deep down that he hasn't the skills or knowledge to be in the position he is in. He knows he got there built on the reputation of others (Monchi) and through his own ability to blag and sound knowledgeable to people who haven't the knowledge themselves to see through him.

But he also has an ego the size of the moon and is driven by the desire to prove that nagging voice wrong.

I felt with all the Red Bull signings he made that it wasn't just to appease Marsch but because of the reputation of RB he could piggyback on their successful scouting as it seemed almost a guarantee with their players that they will do well. It was like he knew he was sh*t so was trying to go for sure things. However in most cases we were simply carrying on our policy, that started with JKA, of getting RB cast offs. No wonder RB didn't snub us whilst the court case was going on - they simply realised they could milk us for more.

[Cjay]

Loan with an option to buy according to Spanish media.

Seems pointless for us as we don't get money to sign someone.

But we always get stuck with stupid deals.

Presumably Betis want to see if he is any good first and we bend over

[JoeDenver]

Loan with an option to buy according to Spanish media.

Seems pointless for us as we don't get money to sign someone.

But we always get stuck with stupid deals.

Presumably Betis want to see if he is any good first and we bend over

Beggars can’t be choosers, CJay. We’re out of leverage on this one. One thought is that if he’s retained, he’ll adjust and become a stud in the Championship. I thought he was pretty good in the first half of the year, but was mailing it in by the end (like just about everyone else).

[Cjay]

One more.

Marc Roca on loan to Real Betis is basically done according to Spanish media.

It's a loan with wages paid and an option to buy which we are obligated to accept.

Really starting to think we have written loan release clauses into contracts which is thoroughly bizarre.

[Cjay]

Another loan.

Funding for our rebuild isn't going well

[Scoobychief]

Wow another out on loan for a full season. They'll be worthless in 2024

[Cjay]

Another loan with an option.

Amazing to think Roca, Kristensen, Aaronson, Rodrigo, Llorente.

Nearly £90mil spent.

We've probably received less than £5mil in total to replace them with

One of the men responsible is still here running the club day to day.

The other now has a similar position at a Champions League club

Amazing business football

[White Riot]

Another loan with an option.

Amazing to think Roca, Kristensen, Aaronson, Rodrigo, Llorente.

Nearly £90mil spent.

We've probably received less than £5mil in total to replace them with

One of the men responsible is still here running the club day to day.

The other now has a similar position at a Champions League club

Amazing business football

Tremendous job by the 3 stooges

As I said with Dan James, Firpo and the full gang of Muppets we've signed, once that money is blown your future recruitment is comprised for lots of years.

We're back to scraping the barrel while the guys who we recruited and failed us are golden.

[White Riot]

Wow another out on loan for a full season. They'll be worthless in 2024

Useless is always worthless, unless it's Leeds United that's buying