Sheffield Wednesday v Leeds Utd Match Thread

[The Subhuman]

Everyone despises the long ball over the top, route one football is associated with dinosaurs like big Sam. It seems it has been consigned to the rubbish heap of history, and everyone wants to emulate the tiktak football of Pep because of the success it has brought.

But this season I can remember long balls from Rutter., Ampadu and Cooper that has resulted in glorious goals. It all depends how the other team are set up defensively, and wheather it is likely that hoof ball just means we are giving the ball straight back to the opposition.

It is all a question of space, the ball should be put into an area where we have a man and they do not... Simples... and we have the pace and runners to exploit that situation be it James or Roberts, or Summerville or Gnonto.

As posted earlier, the long ball/route one football is causing problems in the prem as teams these days don't know how to defend it. We not only have most teams play a high press but also a very high back line. That exposes them to pace and the ball over the top

[weasel]

I would agree. With Ampadu being deeper it gives him more time to be able to play a pass than when he is in midfield. He is in effect a quarterback for us with Gruev and Kamara protecting him.

[weasel]

Maybe he can pass it to Ampadu

Well spotted my eagle eyed chum. Meant to say with Gruev and Kamara protecting him.

[weasel]

Sheffield Wednesday v Leeds United - tonight
Leeds United 21's v Norwich 21's - also tonight
Leeds United 18's v Everton 18's - tomorrow at midday

will make selections interesting. Does Charlie play for the 21's or will he be on the bench tonight etc. Charlie Crew plays for both the 21's and 18's ...

It is just ludcirous that they play games on the same night - gives no opportunity for Farke to allow the likes of Cresswell, Gelhardt and other the chance to play for the U21s. Loads of times this season where the 'reserves' have played the same day or within a day of the first team.

[Jammy 07]

It's clearly a DF instruction.

We have the ball on the left and the right winger is basically all alone crying out for the switch, or the other way round

But no it takes 2 or 3 shorter passes.

It's something imo we are missing out on, people say Summerville gets doubled up on, well our slow build up allows that.

That Bielsa side that won promotion had the highest switch of play rank in the league, this one, 2nd lowest.

For me the switch of play is one of the best weapons we have, we have some of the best 1v1 wingers in the league and it's a weapon we never utilise properly and now you are into the individual reliance factor as players have to beat 2 or 3 players rather than 1v1 vs a full back.

Against Sheffield Wednesday it seems such an obvious tactic but we won't do it.

Good observations Cjay.

The diagonal cross field long pass though is high risk because when cut out can lead to a dangerous counter attack from opposition. The pass most of us would like to see more of is the ball into the channel against a high defensive line which is relatively risk free. These passes would usually have to be attempted by Rodon or Ampedu from a central area at the back. The risk free element is that if it's unsuccessful the opposition just regain possession in their final third.

Of course you are 100% correct that Farke does not wish to risk losing possession this way, which is why we don't play them very often.

[Sean_Nile]

As posted earlier, the long ball/route one football is causing problems in the prem as teams these days don't know how to defend it. We not only have most teams play a high press but also a very high back line. That exposes them to pace and the ball over the top

Yes I can image, for a decade we have watched tiktak football and most teams are set up to defend that style of play.

I can hear players exclaiming what are you doing with those long balls... that's not fair... You're not allowed to play like that... We've got our defence set up for tiktak and you go and ruin it by doing something so unconventional as playing the ball into free space... I'm going to report you to matron, and the headmaster will give you six of the best, for the way you are playing is just cricket.

[Irish Ian]

Long ball worked well for the crazy gang all those years ago. The purists hated it then and the snobs hate it now.

It is a great weapon to have in your armoury imo

[Irish Ian]

Wish we could play Amps in midfield

Think quick switches could be a real weapon and Kamara doesn't do that, safe, short passes.

Gruev maybe?

Does Gruev have that in his game? He might be the key if he does.

[weasel]

As posted earlier, the long ball/route one football is causing problems in the prem as teams these days don't know how to defend it. We not only have most teams play a high press but also a very high back line. That exposes them to pace and the ball over the top

Similar also in the way that the Marsch 'tactics' could cause the better teams problems as they would continue to try to play out from the back but find themselves swarmed over and lose the ball - note how we got success against the likes of Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal (despite the score) as those teams continued to try to play their way out from the back. Against teams that were prepared to knock a longer ball, even just a 20 yard pass, past our high press and we were suddenly exposed - and also second time around against teams they knew how to play against us and the suprise factor was over.

All tactics can be vulnerable against certain other tactics. Often a reason why you get cup upsets as the lower team are up for it and chase and put their more sophisticated opponents under pressure they don't experience as often. The long ball, the chasing down the loose second ball etc.

[Chilli D]

I'm expecting tonight's game to be more like Huddersfield than Stoke with them flying into tackles and trying to upset our rhythm. If Barry Bannan isn't playing that a big loss for them and obviously Poveda can't play either so I would say that's two of their most creative players missing.

[WestgateRun]

It would be great if we could get a convincing victory tonight.
Then we can see how Ipswich and Leicester cope under pressure.

[Cjay]

Agreed. It's a good tool/option to have and one that keep defenses on their toes and so many of our forward players are crying out for the ball. Clearly it's how DF wants them to play, but digging deeper into this...is it a step he takes to exert greater control over possession, and by extension protect the defense, or is it a trust issue with the longer, cross-field passes, again at the risk of exposing the defense while our own team adjusts to the switch of play and the vulnerability that can create.

This approach would offer another alternative, especially when teams are keeping Geo on his back through the middle. Another way to create the space needed on the opposite wing, as well as through the middle as the defense switches.

I assume it may be a mixture of both of what you suggest.

But for a team with imo 1v1 the single best winger in the league (Summerville) its a massive weapon not being utilised.

Obviously it's risky as it isn't just the opposition that can be caught by a misplaced switch, but its not a coincidence the best teams all use it.

Man City and Liverpool are 2 of the top 4 for it in the Premier League this season, the top 3 for switches of play were the top 3 in the Prem last season. 2 of the top 4 in La Liga, 1st placed team in serie A is 2nd in Italy.

Teams who face packed midfield can't just rely on slow build ups, they need an alternative.

How often do we say Georgie got caught in possession in the middle of the pitch, which is crowded, or Summerville is struggling as he has 2 or even 3 on him. A simple fast switch can remove these problems a few times a game.

The teams who use it are the ones with the best 1v1 wingers, Salah, Jota, Foden, Doku, or even Neto and Kudas (West Ham and Wolves are the other 2 teams in that top 4).

In our first season promoted we ranked 2nd, how important was getting Raph 1v1 that season?

The risk is obvious but the rewards would imo be far greater.

[Cjay]

Good observations Cjay.

The diagonal cross field long pass though is high risk because when cut out can lead to a dangerous counter attack from opposition. The pass most of us would like to see more of is the ball into the channel against a high defensive line which is relatively risk free. These passes would usually have to be attempted by Rodon or Ampedu from a central area at the back. The risk free element is that if it's unsuccessful the opposition just regain possession in their final third.

Of course you are 100% correct that Farke does not wish to risk losing possession this way, which is why we don't play them very often.

The risk is clear as you say, but as you also point out it doesn't have to be an inch perfect pass.

It could be a simple diagonal into the space, very few full backs would beat Summerville or James in a foot race.

Have we got players who can ping inch perfect diagonal passes? Probably not regularly no.

But if you drag an opponent to one side of the pitch and instruct the opposite winger to stand on the touchline then you will have all the space in the world to put it into the general area, it doesn't need to be inch perfect if done right?

Most teams defend narrow against us (as is very common vs possession teams) If you pull them one side they will still be generally very narrow to minimise space.

So the space will be available.

It's no coincidence Liverpool and Man City (and Manure last season) are the top teams for switches per game.

Salah, Rashford, Garnacho, Jota, getting those wingers 1v1 is a crucial weapon for them.

It's one we must utilise imo.

As posted above getting Raph 1v1 was vital for us when he was here, many of those were from long diagonal passes.

[Cjay]

Does Gruev have that in his game? He might be the key if he does.

We've seen him do it before?

But as we don't do it as a team we don't really know if it's something he can do regularly.

[andrewjohnsmith]

Noticed that too, '64. Do wish we would take a little more advantage of this. We are dead last (or first depending on your perspective) for passing attempts at distance (again, 30 yards or more) with 2,128.

For comparison purposes, here are where all top four teams rank.

16th - Ipswich: 2586
19th - Leicester: 2504
23rd - Soton: 2189
24th - Leeds: 2128

Source: https://fbref.com/en/comps/10/Champions ... ds_passing

It's quite telling that all 4 top teams rank low in long passes. Clearly showing it's the ploy weaker teams rely on more heavily. And Ipswich are quite a bit higher than the other 3, which makes sense. They're the underdogs in that group - the other 3 have more quality having dropped down with premier league players.

But we could definitely mix it up a lot more. Kalvin Phillips? Miss some of those cross field long balls that Harrison would take in his stride.

[andrewjohnsmith]

It is just ludcirous that they play games on the same night - gives no opportunity for Farke to allow the likes of Cresswell, Gelhardt and other the chance to play for the U21s. Loads of times this season where the 'reserves' have played the same day or within a day of the first team.

Agree. And the 21's next game is 2 days before the seniors. Ought to be easier for the two clubs to rearrange their games to suit senior game schedules.

[andrewjohnsmith]

I'm expecting tonight's game to be more like Huddersfield than Stoke with them flying into tackles and trying to upset our rhythm. If Barry Bannan isn't playing that a big loss for them and obviously Poveda can't play either so I would say that's two of their most creative players missing.

Poveda has been a revelation for them playing in the 10 role. Their fans have been raving about him. I know it's a new manager turn around, but that's also coincided with the time Poveda has been there. I did watch one of his games and thought he was really good.

He was always frustrating for us. Had some exciting cameos, but produced little of note. I was disappointed that we let him go though, at a time when we still needed 3 goalies to fill the bench.

Just shows again. Many of the young players at our club who we don't think are good enough just need consistent playing time. That's the only way to find out their true worth. Some have pushed their way forward with substitute appearances. But for most, they need to be starting regularly.

[andrewjohnsmith]

I assume it may be a mixture of both of what you suggest.

But for a team with imo 1v1 the single best winger in the league (Summerville) its a massive weapon not being utilised.

Obviously it's risky as it isn't just the opposition that can be caught by a misplaced switch, but its not a coincidence the best teams all use it.

Man City and Liverpool are 2 of the top 4 for it in the Premier League this season, the top 3 for switches of play were the top 3 in the Prem last season. 2 of the top 4 in La Liga, 1st placed team in serie A is 2nd in Italy.

Teams who face packed midfield can't just rely on slow build ups, they need an alternative.

How often do we say Georgie got caught in possession in the middle of the pitch, which is crowded, or Summerville is struggling as he has 2 or even 3 on him. A simple fast switch can remove these problems a few times a game.

The teams who use it are the ones with the best 1v1 wingers, Salah, Jota, Foden, Doku, or even Neto and Kudas (West Ham and Wolves are the other 2 teams in that top 4).

In our first season promoted we ranked 2nd, how important was getting Raph 1v1 that season?

The risk is obvious but the rewards would imo be far greater.

I'm OK with our build up play as a whole. But we really need to mix it up a lot more. And you need intelligent players to do that. I suppose the player needs to be trusted too (knowing he's not going to get a rollocking from his manager). Ampadu seems to be the only one of our back 6 willing to think on his feet and mix it up.

One thing about our team is that it's our front 4 that are far superior to opposing players. Our midfielders aren't going to kill you. It's all about the front 4. For that reason, we need to get it to them quicker at times. I'm happy with the slow play. But you have to recognize that open opportunities a lot faster and more often.

[andrewjohnsmith]

We've seen him do it before?

But as we don't do it as a team we don't really know if it's something he can do regularly.

With Gruev, I think you're talking about the long ball? I've seen him do it a couple of times. But not very often. Ampadu definitely has better range from deep.

[Leeds1000]

I am hoping Archie comes into midfield tonight to add to our creativity. I did notice against Stoke that Kamara, especially second half was dropping into right sided DM role instead of pressing more in the Eight higher up the pitch. I thought it all got a little congested in our own half.

We need a good performance from our two stars. When it clicks between Geo & Jimmy the game seems to open up for everyone else. Two teams bang in form but Leeds to come out on top 3-1 and shift the expectation back on our rivals.