Arsenal v Leeds Utd Match Thread

[Jaydog]

Jordan Chamberlain, Liverpool fan writer
“Liverpool are in a tricky situation. Despite apparently 'winning the transfer window' with monster deals for Florian Wirtz, Hugo Ekitike and others, the Reds are going into the second weekend of the season worryingly short in attack.”

Worryingly short in attack
Like a former billionaire saying he’s down to his last 10 million.

We are surely the epitome of “worryingly short in attack”.

[1964white]

Newcastle are no Arsenal, not by a long stretch.

We go after them at Elland Road, another raucous atmosphere should see us pushing forward and I certainly don’t see a 0-5 result.

A draw for me.

[weasel]

We won't be defined by games vs Arsenal I agree.

But you'd hope to atleast compete not look totally out of your depth.

We've signed a load of big buggers, still clueless from set pieces.

We had the opportunity to go long and try and stretch Arsenal, nope let's play through them.

We signed a goalie whose known for not being great with the ball at his feet, let's keep giving it to him and asking him to play short passes to the cbs.

The defeat won't define us, but the stupidity or naivety in approach isn't acceptable.

You can always have a sensible plan and approach, if it doesn't work and are beaten by a better side fair enough, we didn't have that.

Hopefully see some lessons learned vs Newcastle next week

Agree with some of what you say. The game won't define us. Like you say at times we looked out of our depth and the defending from set pieces was abysmal, as was Struyjk showing Goykoares inside for the 3rd goal - I know Struyjk was on the wrong side but to show him in towards goal is just not how you defend.

The coment about having the option to go long but saying we played through the middle though is bizarre. When we went long we simply gave the ball away - as we generally did when we played short too. What we needed to do was show composure and beat the press - that is when the space then opens up - same under Bielsa as it is for Farke. If you have 3 or 4 players pressing and you can get past it then they have those players out of position. In effect Arsenal committed to the high press like Jesse Marsch's way of playing. It is why the high press Marsch way worked in leagues like Austria where you have the far better side and the opposition don't have the composure to be able to get past the press. It was probably a game where we needed someone big up front to win the ball from the long 'passes' from Perri and keep possession - not Piroe's strength and I think in similar games it will likely be Nmecha or DCL to try to do that. Not writing Piroe off but Farke will have to pick the right times to use him.

The goalie thing is baffling. The amount of times Perri lofted a ball for a 20/30 yard pass instead of playing it on the ground was ridiculous. It immediately put our receiving player under pressure - the one to Bogle being a prime example as Bogle in trying to bring it down simply suceeded in losing the ball. Those passes needed to be to feet so the receiving player can play it first time if they are under pressure. This was the key facet of how Bielsa had us playing as the pass was played so the player receiving had their body stance open and could pass first time to a player (or two or three) who were ready for the next pass. The fact he had a poor game in terms of saving shots as well is concerning.

I think the planning was probably okay we just didn't execute it especially in our passing. The annoying thing was the manner of goals conceded - they all were very avoidable. I would have rather been ripped apart by a Wenger-esque Arsenal side than beaten by a Southgate-esque Arsenal.

[AcrossThePondAsh]

Second that on the Duke's. Best jarred mayonnaise in the US.

This is basically blasphemy where I'm from, but I'm a late a in life mayonnaise convert in general--I was a strange little child in terms of what I would and would not eat (ex. wouldn't touch pizza when I was little and parents would have to get me my own Happy Meal whenever they got it). Duke's is definitely the best. In fact, the wife's family love Duke's so much, I've got nieces that will have nothing-but-mayo sandwiches. A bridge too far for me, but to each their own

[weasel]

Only available on Amazon and I never use them.
Never use anything in a squeezy bottle either especially not Hellmans heaven forbid.
If i could get a jar I’d try it.

Sounds like you were clearly affected by that ninth birthday party you went to and played a game when you were blindfolded and told to squeeze the bottle till the sauce came out.

[weasel]

We ran the second highest distance of any team in the league last week.

I think the team is fit, but when you have very little of the ball and are pressed relentlessly when you do, it's going to take it out of you. That's why the bench is so important in this league.

Spot on. I think it was a mental fatigue rather than physical. When you continually give the ball away and feel under pressure every time you get it then you get worn down - especially when you are then chasing for the rest of the time. You could see it at times when we got the ball and just didn't seem to be thinking properly in terms of what to do with it.

We saw against Everton that despite the first half dominance we had a dip in the second half and there were some poor passes. The speed of the opposition and fitness of them is probably much better than the championship oppositon. Farke fresehned it up and we got control back.

Against Arsenal we seemd to have weathered the storm and were getting into the game more but then conceded the softest goal. After that we were playing against a team with their tails up and I doubt any amount of substitutions would have changed much.

[Tom the Cat]

I don't particularly like loosing - it was the manner of loosing that was disgraceful. No midfield, hardly a pass to one of our own players, and hardly ever got into Arsenal's half. On one rare occasion we had a throw in almost level with the Arsenal penalty box and the bloody ball ended up with Perri. That fellows control with the ball at his feet is dreadful as is his distribution when trying to play out from the back - his slow clumsy attempts to control the ball at his feet should have allowed Arsenal to score twice in the first ten minutes.

If Farke cannot see the error of his ways we will get a thumping from Newcastle on Saturday. He must put out a decent side against Wednesday as a good win is needed to boost confidence. Struggling against them doesn't bear thinking about.

[weasel]

44 errors in the first-half.

Yes and no matter what side a manager puts out there isn't a great deal you can do if a side makes that many errors.

[1964white]

Yes and no matter what side a manager puts out there isn't a great deal you can do if a side makes that many errors.

When players misplace simple five-yard passes, even when not being pressed, we have a problem!

[1964white]

I don't particularly like loosing - it was the manner of loosing that was disgraceful. No midfield, hardly a pass to one of our own players, and hardly ever got into Arsenal's half. On one rare occasion we had a throw in almost level with the Arsenal penalty box and the bloody ball ended up with Perri. That fellows control with the ball at his feet is dreadful as is his distribution when trying to play out from the back - his slow clumsy attempts to control the ball at his feet should have allowed Arsenal to score twice in the first ten minutes.

Bang on, Tom.

Do our players not realise, you can't be offside from a throw-in, so the sensible option is for our wingers/forwards to run beyond the opposition's defensive line.

As for Perri, that is one of the worst keeper performances I've seen.

[weasel]

It's always wonderful to read the experts at the final whistle in hindsight, but they never seem to be able to tell us what they know prior to any matches starting.
In hindsight i should've left my £10 0-1 bet in my back pocket and i'm kicking myself for being so stupid as to dream we could win, but i've always been an optimistic person, probably too optimistic as i knew we'd get spanked and bet with my heart, if my life depended on it it's Arsenal all day long. I don't have any qualms at all with how Farke went about the game from the off and someone has nailed it - We are 'Aldi' Arsenal are 'Harrods' we have a long way to go. I don't have a problem because Farke had to find out where we're at, and i'm pretty sure he, the players, and the club have found out.

He has not been shy about the fact we are not strong enough up front, so i'm 100% certain things are going to change there, but he has some loyalty about him, not overly loyal but loyal enough to try and keep a happy dressing room loyal, the new players are not up to speed with team plans, so throwing Okafor straight in for example could easily not do Gudmundson any favours if he doesn't know to track back and combine with him yet,After last season and also beating EFC and performing ok/ish in the friendlies he was loyal to Willy, Piroe and James, forums would've been in meltdown had we lost 5-0 with Okafor- Dcl- Nmecha.

Could we have played any other way/s, absolutely yes.
Would we have won - I can confidently on yesterdays evidence say 'not a cat in hells chance'

The two biggest worries/concerns to come from yesterdays performance was - Have other teams now learned to really press us fast and high thus into panic, because - Are we good enough to play like we did in the Championship at this higher level? No, not against the better teams, which is a big concern I hope the lesser teams can't learn to capitalise on.
There's no getting away from the fact the rich clubs are going to be out of our reach trying to match them, I think we need more evidence for the rest.
When Arsenal went and scored the first goal I immediately thought it was over as a 'contest' there's are loads of reasons why, them being at home etc, but basically we haven't got the players they have to call it a contest and get back into the game, an army will outgun you with better men and artillery, the keeper and defence were under constant bombardment, the midfield over-ran and no fire power up front - We are not on their level, if you want 'Roukes Drift' then fine, you'll still lose.

The 2nd - Was our keeper, very concerning, more evidence needed, i don't particularly want to dwell on it because of that.
For any that want Farke sacked before he's had a chance - I think he will come under the spotlight if he doesn't address certain things, from EFC we competed well but lacked up front, from Arsenal - The keeper's plays/distribution - and their fast early press on us i.e Bogle's expression when the keeper chipped it nearly out of play to him etc and the look of 'What the hell am i supposed to do with that?" We were causing a lot of problems ourselves, but that's quite hard to fix 'in-play' - He needs to go through the game sat down with them all on a big screen replay, pausing and highlighting how good they were at things, and how bad we were at stuff.

Looking for positives - I think we can get better, we weren't terribly bad until their first goal, and it's a shame we didn't score first from Pascals corner header because it ended as a contest when Arsenal got the first, and especially the second they went into dictating 'overdrive. I don't particularly want to get into any arguments about our level/manager/players because it's plain to see where we're at. Better to be constructive/realistic/honest, we've a long way to go.

I think Newcastle will now beat us, but i'm hoping he can get his best team out asap so as to analyse, i don't feel that's his best team yet, we weren't very special v EFC, they came out playing all wrong first half and we were in total control, it was more of a contest 2nd half where we still lacked dominance/firepower up front until the changes.
So for me, the jury is still out on whether we're good enough to stay up, the games after Newcastle will be vital in determining that, unless of course we beat Newcastle, which would help a great deal

MOT.

Indeed all the experts in hindsights would have made all these decisions that would have given us the win.

Imagine the outcry if Tanaka had been dropped after the Everton game or Stach. Both were woeful against Arsenal and lacked any composure. It's one game, like I have mentioned I think the occasion got to them, the shiny stadium, the opposition star players etc. Miles different to having our crowd behind us and having opposition (Everton) that had no stars or real quality. I would say we were every bit as dominant in the first half v Everton as Arsenal were against us. And just as we failed to really trouble Pickford so Arsenal failed to trouble Perri (from shots) until a minute before half time and a stuffy corner.

So where are we. Maybe we're not as good as the first half against Everton suggested we were but equally I don't think we are as bad as the scoreline yesterday would suggest. Hopefully those starstruck players will have learnt from it, they won't get stagefright next time - I'm sure as well oiled cricket bats that our players are better than they made themselves look.

[weasel]

When players misplace simple five-yard passes, even when not being pressed, we have a problem!

Indeed. Posters suggesting we were naively playing out from the back and it cost us for the second goal are as wide of the mark as Gruev's pass was. Gruev simply miscontrolled and knocked the ball into an Arsenal player - it wasn't him controlling the ball and attempting a pass.

[Cjay]

Agree with some of what you say. The game won't define us. Like you say at times we looked out of our depth and the defending from set pieces was abysmal, as was Struyjk showing Goykoares inside for the 3rd goal - I know Struyjk was on the wrong side but to show him in towards goal is just not how you defend.

The coment about having the option to go long but saying we played through the middle though is bizarre. When we went long we simply gave the ball away - as we generally did when we played short too. What we needed to do was show composure and beat the press - that is when the space then opens up - same under Bielsa as it is for Farke. If you have 3 or 4 players pressing and you can get past it then they have those players out of position. In effect Arsenal committed to the high press like Jesse Marsch's way of playing. It is why the high press Marsch way worked in leagues like Austria where you have the far better side and the opposition don't have the composure to be able to get past the press. It was probably a game where we needed someone big up front to win the ball from the long 'passes' from Perri and keep possession - not Piroe's strength and I think in similar games it will likely be Nmecha or DCL to try to do that. Not writing Piroe off but Farke will have to pick the right times to use him.

The goalie thing is baffling. The amount of times Perri lofted a ball for a 20/30 yard pass instead of playing it on the ground was ridiculous. It immediately put our receiving player under pressure - the one to Bogle being a prime example as Bogle in trying to bring it down simply suceeded in losing the ball. Those passes needed to be to feet so the receiving player can play it first time if they are under pressure. This was the key facet of how Bielsa had us playing as the pass was played so the player receiving had their body stance open and could pass first time to a player (or two or three) who were ready for the next pass. The fact he had a poor game in terms of saving shots as well is concerning.

I think the planning was probably okay we just didn't execute it especially in our passing. The annoying thing was the manner of goals conceded - they all were very avoidable. I would have rather been ripped apart by a Wenger-esque Arsenal side than beaten by a Southgate-esque Arsenal.

Fair post.

Are some important differences between the way Bielsa plays out and Farke which probably don't help.

Body position of the player and such, Farke likes players to maintain control so generally our players take a touch and pass, whereas Bielsa was more focused on progression so the body position of the receiver was different and the passing position (in front of a player or at a player) sort of thing.

Both had merits and downsides, Bielsa's requires almost telepathic movement and passing lanes and very quick slick stuff which obviously is a risk in itself because of the pace and intricacies.

And Farke's is as its slower by design easier to pen in I'd say, it invites the press by its very design.

I have some sympathy for Perri in the sense he was being asked to do a lot of what he isn't good at in terms of playing out from the back, as you say we probably needed a long plan, to relieve pressure and get up the pitch.

But selection made that hard.

At the same time I'd hope Perri would be better at the basics, crosses and such.

I do find it really really odd we've apparently never got a specialist set piece coach in, I don't understand that (and as far as I know we still havent).

Our season won't be defined by the defeat (all be it a 5-0 defeat which we made easy ourselves isn't ok).

And the hope would be imo it maybe focuses some minds, Farke the owners all of them into what's missing, what works and what doesn't.

If it can be a learning curve then that would be nice.

You'd hope to see an indication of such next weekend.

And I personally have said all summer I think this playing out from the back needs to stop quite a lot of the time (especially against pressing teams like Arsenal)

[weasel]

That, more than the loss, is what bothers me. We really missed Ampadu in the middle of the pitch.

Reminded me of how much things fell apart when Tyler Adams wend down a few years ago. Not a good sign that we're so reliant on one player to provide structure and composure.

I don't think Ampadu would have been as starstruck as it seemed Gruev, Tanaka and Stach were. In hindsight maybe playing Longstaff would have been better given that he will have likely played at the Emirates before and against the Arsenal players. I think Ampadu would have played his usual game, likely a solid 7/10 whereas the 3 starters in our midfield were very poor and nowhere near their best.

[weasel]

Tough to blame anyone

Rodon should have made the run for their first. Gudmundsson let Saka go and Perri should have saved Saka's shot. Bogle got in Struijk's way while missing a tackle for the third. Ping pong for the fouth, no one got a clean touch on it. Stach gave the pen away for the fifth

Can moan we didn't hoof it more but it would have come straight back and made little difference, best defence is to have an attacking threat and we had none.. Why I said we can't be defensive this season it just won't work

A voice of sanity. When we went long there were a couple of times we nearly made something of it but most of the time it just meant Arsenal had the ball and they could play it around again and come at us.

[weasel]

A defeat entirely of our own making.

And Farke making 0 changes at half time showed he had naff all idea how to change it.

The game was effectively over at half time. Only hope was to nick an early goal, after the break, and then the pressure gets to them. As such probably sensible to go with players who had played the first half rather than bringing cold players on. Also then gives the option to really go for it if we did get a goal back. I doubt making changes at half time would have had resulted in a change of note. Almost better to continue the steep learning curve for some of the players.

[weasel]

When Bielsa beat Man Citeh, it was through parking the bus rather than all out attack. Ironically, it was Jesse Marsch who beat Chelski and Liverpool playing to our normal game.

If we play like we did yesterday and get battered by Newcastle, I can see the stadium turning on Farke.

That was dictated by the fact we'd had Cooper sent off. We were basically unable to retain the ball so not much opportunity to try to attack them. Due to us giving the ball back to them we were forced to defend rather than selecting to.

Chelsea battered us first 20 minutes, had a goal disallowed for a very close offside and had other chances. We rode our luck and then got gifted the opening goal. Similarly yesterday I wonder what would have happened if Struyjk's header goes in at 0-0. Goals change matches.

[weasel]

Marsch for all his faults never lost by 5 clear goals.

The least we need to see vs Newcastle is Farke has learned something

We set up vs Newcastle as we did vs Arsenal then another battering could be on the cards.

I remember him celebrating losing 3-0 to Man City as if he'd won the FA Cup!

[weasel]

Yes against all the top teams defences like Arsenal i think we'll most definitely struggle to 'create, in Willy Piroe and James we just haven't got the talent to create, but against the lesser teams i feel the moment we drop those 3 for Ofafor - Dcl and Nmecha we'll be more of an attacking threat for sure.
I think Man U struggled to 'create versus Arsenal last week.
Arsenal struggled to create against PSG in the Champions league.

Once we get sorted i think we'll be better

Although we did manage to get James away a couple of times and he got shots in. He doesn't look quite right yet but once back up to full fitness, and top speed, then there is always the potential there for a quick breakway and him smashing one in.

[Cjay]

I remember him celebrating losing 3-0 to Man City as if he'd won the FA Cup!

That's pretty Marschesque tbf, celebrate moments at 4-0 down vs a team barely trying anymore

Was just making the point about the rare nature of that width of defeat and it being unacceptable.

Regardless of opposition defeats by 5 goals aren't excusable is basically the point imo.