Crysencio Summerville

[mentalcase]

Many of the U23 squad are not going to become first teamers.
Many would have been bought at a low price with potential.
CS was bought for £1.3m - he may go for £8m+ for example, which is a big profit.
Sentimentality aside, this happens at all PL teams.

I agree, although, lets give the kids a chance to shine here first, we all know many won't make it, but, when they see the chances given to roberts for one, they have to be frustrated, Bielsa is the sticking point here, we have no money to buy, we have a injury list as long as Schindlers and still we can't give the kids more time.
Cresswell , Hjielde, Gelhardt Drameh, Shackleton and Summerville have featured the most, and all of them have done a stirling job when called upon, we poached Drameh and Bielsa bombed him out, we poached Bate, not seen again.
Sure, the kids have to know their place, but, how are they supposed to gain experience in very brief cameos, especially when the over-protected first teamers like Harrison, James, Roberts, Rodrigo, Firpo and Klitch are regularly misfiring.
Just hope the rot stops soon.
I suppose buying for £1 million and selling for £3.5 million is seen as good business, although it isn't if we have to spend 10 times that amount to replace the ageing 1st team, we probably won't even have a sell on clause in place.

[Johnboy1965]

Shame to see him leave but can't blame the lad. Won't be the last of our kids to leave either.
Good player with loads of potential but at the minute seems to lack the physicality that playing in the PL demands.
Similar to Poveda in that respect .

[Finnatic]

I agree, although, lets give the kids a chance to shine here first, we all know many won't make it, but, when they see the chances given to roberts for one, they have to be frustrated, Bielsa is the sticking point here, we have no money to buy, we have a injury list as long as Schindlers and still we can't give the kids more time.
Cresswell , Hjielde, Gelhardt Drameh, Shackleton and Summerville have featured the most, and all of them have done a stirling job when called upon, we poached Drameh and Bielsa bombed him out, we poached Bate, not seen again.
Sure, the kids have to know their place, but, how are they supposed to gain experience in very brief cameos, especially when the over-protected first teamers like Harrison, James, Roberts, Rodrigo, Firpo and Klitch are regularly misfiring.
Just hope the rot stops soon.
I suppose buying for £1 million and selling for £3.5 million is seen as good business, although it isn't if we have to spend 10 times that amount to replace the ageing 1st team, we probably won't even have a sell on clause in place.

I wouldn’t say Drameh was bombed out, he asked to leave MB asked him to stay. He has been with the first team for a few months now, whether due to injuries or otherwise.
Bate has been seen since, he made the bench for quite a few games then played in the two pre Newcastle.
He was also on the bench v Newcastle.

[mentalcase]

I wouldn’t say Drameh was bombed out, he asked to leave MB asked him to stay. He has been with the first team for a few months now, whether due to injuries or otherwise.
Bate has been seen since, he made the bench for quite a few games then played in the two pre Newcastle.
He was also on the bench v Newcastle.

Fair enough, I think a lot on here, myself included are so frustrated, probably through lack of goals per chance created.
I do understand Bielsa not throwing the kids in, no point burning them put too soon, all the top teams have integrated them in slowly to protect them.
I think (me personally) its a very fine judgement call, use em or lose em, but, we have to respect the call from Bielsa, hopefully he stays for a few more years to bring it all to fruition.

[Cjay]

McKinstry and McCarron look miles off Summerville imo.

Be a real shame to lose our best young winger because he is understandably frustrated about a lack of opportunities.

[SG90]

Many of the U23 squad are not going to become first teamers.
Many would have been bought at a low price with potential.
CS was bought for £1.3m - he may go for £8m+ for example, which is a big profit.
Sentimentality aside, this happens at all PL teams.

Well if that's the case, then buying u23s has been a failure. I thought they were being sold as our future who Bielsa could nurture?

[Ellandback1]

I wouldn’t say Drameh was bombed out, he asked to leave MB asked him to stay. He has been with the first team for a few months now, whether due to injuries or otherwise.
Bate has been seen since, he made the bench for quite a few games then played in the two pre Newcastle.
He was also on the bench v Newcastle.

Pretty depressing though that your Manager will go out of his way to play a square peg in a round hole rather than give youth a chance.

He plays the U23's ONLY when there is nobody else to fill in, which then messes up our balance.

[SG90]

I agree, although, lets give the kids a chance to shine here first, we all know many won't make it, but, when they see the chances given to roberts for one, they have to be frustrated, Bielsa is the sticking point here, we have no money to buy, we have a injury list as long as Schindlers and still we can't give the kids more time.
Cresswell , Hjielde, Gelhardt Drameh, Shackleton and Summerville have featured the most, and all of them have done a stirling job when called upon, we poached Drameh and Bielsa bombed him out, we poached Bate, not seen again.
Sure, the kids have to know their place, but, how are they supposed to gain experience in very brief cameos, especially when the over-protected first teamers like Harrison, James, Roberts, Rodrigo, Firpo and Klitch are regularly misfiring.
Just hope the rot stops soon.
I suppose buying for £1 million and selling for £3.5 million is seen as good business, although it isn't if we have to spend 10 times that amount to replace the ageing 1st team, we probably won't even have a sell on clause in place.

Well said.

[Ellandback1]

Anyone else like to see him start ahead of James occasionally? I would.

I just hope Gelhardt doesn’t go the same way.

I really hope we keep Gelhardt, but its an absolute joke the amount of game time he has had since Bamfords injury. He only started when there was literally nobody else. Even Roberts is before him.

[Carrick Dave]

Jimmy should only be going to Hamburg till the summer if we have significantly extended his contract, and the Germans are paying a huge slice of his wages.

[velo]

Pretty depressing though that your Manager will go out of his way to play a square peg in a round hole rather than give youth a chance.

He plays the U23's ONLY when there is nobody else to fill in, which then messes up our balance.

It's becoming increasing obvious why he plays Roberts......this is actually very worrying as he is loyal to the nucleus of the team, no matter what, even if better options are available outside his prefered bubble, no wonder we are struggling

[Finnatic]

Pretty depressing though that your Manager will go out of his way to play a square peg in a round hole rather than give youth a chance.

He plays the U23's ONLY when there is nobody else to fill in, which then messes up our balance.

I wouldn’t say he only plays them when there is nobody else and he gives youth a chance when he feels they are ready.

Struijk leapfrogged Cresswell and the other U23 CB to play in the Liverpool game last season because he liked what he saw (the other two were more advanced in our U23 development than Struijk at the time)

Jack Clark is another initially so is Roberts and Gelhardt.
Roberts was promoted to the first team squad after a spell in the U23s and so was Gelhardt when he became “Bielsafit” (he was a bit chunky when he signed)

Senior players are trusted more than youth at most levels and MB trains players to cover a few positions, therefore he will use experience over inexperience.
Don’t forget, the youth players are also being trained to play a few positions, Shackleton springs to mind.

J Giles joined as a wide player but was used as a square peg in a round hole in midfield, and that worked out.

[weasel]

I'm fed up of Bielsa showing continued loyalty to players just because they got the team promoted and played well in the premiership. They are clearly all past it now and my threshold for dropping them would be 1 or 2 bad performances. I'd take the fact that we are missing several experienced players, through injuries, and get rid of anybody else with experience too.

It is very easy for us to sit here and judge a player. Look at Malik Wilkes who we let go for a pittance to Barnsley. Played well against us and many fans suggested we'd have been better off keeping him rather than Jack Harrison. Where is Wilkes now? Certain players look good in flashes but that is all there ever is. Bielsa knows what he needs from a player, likely has a list of 100s, if not 1000s, of attribues that he wants to see in a player. He sees what a player can become with the right coaching but it is a process that takes time. Some players may have more natural attributes and can progress quicker others have great attributes but these aren't as apparent to every judge initially. Just like how Bielsa sees how a winger can become a central midfielder he can see what a player can become, but it takes time.

[Podinger]

Just for a bit of perspective from Germany: I VERY much doubt Hamburg are able to, let alone willing to, spend more than the 1.5m Leeds had to pay for Summerville. There is talk of how they could possibly manage to afford his wages, there simply isn't the money in 2. Bundesliga.
If he does want to leave for Hamburg, Leeds will need to make it either a loan or a loan with obligation to buy in case of promotion. And even then there won't be a lot of room for profit in this transfer.

[Mountain]

I'm fed up of Bielsa showing continued loyalty to players just because they got the team promoted and played well in the premiership.

I'm fed up of him breaking records in introducing teenagers.

He's not breaking them by enough. I want 16 kids getting a chance, stick 'em on as young as 14 and 15, playing game after game. It's as if he thinks experienced players just might be better in relegation scraps, the stubborn fool.

[weasel]

Just for a bit of perspective from Germany: I VERY much doubt Hamburg are able to, let alone willing to, spend more than the 1.5m Leeds had to pay for Summerville. There is talk of how they could possibly manage to afford his wages, there simply isn't the money in 2. Bundesliga.
If he does want to leave for Hamburg, Leeds will need to make it either a loan or a loan with obligation to buy in case of promotion. And even then there won't be a lot of room for profit in this transfer.

It's an excellent point in that Hamburg aren't some big club - same as when Pontus Janssen was put up for sale it shows that how highly fans value a player isn't the same as how other football teams value those players. It would appear that there aren't teams queueing up for Sommerville either to sign him permanently or to loan him so perhaps he isn't as good as we seem to think he is despite the flashes that he has shown.

[Cjay]

I'm fed up of Bielsa showing continued loyalty to players just because they got the team promoted and played well in the premiership. They are clearly all past it now and my threshold for dropping them would be 1 or 2 bad performances. I'd take the fact that we are missing several experienced players, through injuries, and get rid of anybody else with experience too.

What about continuing loyalty.to players who have done naff all for years?

Tyler Roberts for example?

Or continuing loyalty to players who apparently asked to leave because they had nothing left to give? Mateusz Klich.

Or continuing loyalty to an experiment that simply doesn't and hasn't worked, Rodrigo Moreno.

Or continuing loyalty to playing a player in a role he plainly doesn't suit? Dan James.


Nobody is criticising him for being loyal but when something plainly doesn't work it isnt loyalty to persist its stubbornness or inflexibility.

Certain things we do or he does plainly doesn't work and hasn't ever really worked, it isn't to much to expect a highly paid professional to acknowledge this and make a change imo.

As I said in another thread everyone blaming injuries is acting like the exact same thing wasn't happening in pre season when we had no injuries.

The performances were off way before injuries took hold but an element of our support refuse to acknowledge this and act like everyone who isn't blindly supportive of every decision the club makes is being unreasonable, they aren't.

[1964white]

It's an excellent point in that Hamburg aren't some big club - same as when Pontus Janssen was put up for sale it shows that how highly fans value a player isn't the same as how other football teams value those players. It would appear that there aren't teams queueing up for Sommerville either to sign him permanently or to loan him so perhaps he isn't as good as we seem to think he is despite the flashes that he has shown.

Pontus hasn't done badly, despite supposedly teams weren't queueing up for him, still think he was worth more than £4.5m, must have been as Bielsa quoted Jansson was our best player of the season. How many clubs would sell their best international player for less than £5m?

Not surprised teams are not lining up for Summerville as he is raw & unexposed right now. I'm a little unsure about his long term future, though I hope we don't sell him as I believe Crysencio has potential more so than Poveda out on loan to Blackburn. The lad has done quite well when he has featured in the first-team without setting the world alight.

[weasel]

What about continuing loyalty.to players who have done naff all for years?

Tyler Roberts for example? I would agree with you about Tyler Roberts although I do feel that at some point, whether it is with Leeds or another club, something will click with him and he will become a decent player.

Or continuing loyalty to players who apparently asked to leave because they had nothing left to give? Mateusz Klich. I must admit I have never heard that about Klich and would want to know the source before believing it. Klich has looked good again of late so I have little problem with Bielsa showing loyalty to a player who has given his all for Leeds including player through injury.

Or continuing loyalty to an experiment that simply doesn't and hasn't worked, Rodrigo Moreno. I would disagree here mainly because Rodrigo hasn't had a consistent run due to injuries and covid. He has probably only had the one decent length run of consecutive games when fully fit and he did well during that patch. If he'd played continually for a length of time then yes I would agree but at this point I wouldn't be looking to write Rodrigo off. I would have been tempted to sell Rodrigo if a decent offer came in but that is more down to the fact he has continually had injuries and isn't getting any younger.

Or continuing loyalty to playing a player in a role he plainly doesn't suit? Dan James. Very quick to write Dan James off. Bielsa has continually proved us wrong when adjusting players positions and with Bielsa there is no such thing really as a player being unsuited for a position. For me it is part of a learning curve with Dan James that will make him a far better all round player. He is being coached in a way that will make him a much better player - something he didn't get at MU where he went backwards in my opinion.


Nobody is criticising him for being loyal but when something plainly doesn't work it isnt loyalty to persist its stubbornness or inflexibility.

Certain things we do or he does plainly doesn't work and hasn't ever really worked, it isn't to much to expect a highly paid professional to acknowledge this and make a change imo.

As I said in another thread everyone blaming injuries is acting like the exact same thing wasn't happening in pre season when we had no injuries.

The performances were off way before injuries took hold but an element of our support refuse to acknowledge this and act like everyone who isn't blindly supportive of every decision the club makes is being unreasonable, they aren't.

I felt that we got pre-season wrong. I think the intensity wasn't there. Maybe due to us having played two season near enough back to back we didn't go as intense at the start. I don't know but you are right we didn't come out of the traps very quickly. However the sluggishness was temporary, we were a few weeks from being near the right levels fitness wise. Since then though I would say the injuries have been the biggest single reason for the patchy form. We haven't managed to get into any sort of rhythm and rhythm is key for a Bielsa side. Like I have mentioned before if any team, outside probably the top 6, had had the same level of injuries that we have had they'd have been struggling at the bottom of the table. That we aren't is down to Bielsa and the fact that we have always been a team that were stronger than its individuals.

[weasel]

Pontus hasn't done badly, despite supposedly teams weren't queueing up for him, still think he was worth more than £4.5m, must have been as Bielsa quoted Jansson was our best player of the season. How many clubs would sell their best international player for less than £5m?

Not surprised teams are not lining up for Summerville as he is raw & unexposed right now. I'm a little unsure about his long term future, though I hope we don't sell him as I believe Crysencio has potential more so than Poveda out on loan to Blackburn. The lad has done quite well when he has featured in the first-team without setting the world alight.

You can only sell for an amount if a team (or teams) are willing to pay that. If there had been clubs wanting him it would have pushed the price up and we would have heard that Leeds had accepted offers from a,b and c, but Pontus wanted to go to etc
The fact that no one from the Premiership took a punt on him says a lot when £4.5m is pocket change for them even to just have him as 5th or 6th choice. Can't knock that he has done well with Brentford.

I'm with you regarding Summerville. He has looked okay which is why I am surprised that the seemingly only interest is from a German division 2 side. I would have thought some top flight dutch teams, championship teams here, maybe top level teams from other european leagues would have taken a punt on him.