Aston Villa 2-1 Leeds United - Match Debate

[1corvus1]

How many times am I going to read 'we didn't deserve that'......of course we did. We couldn't score, couldn't stop them from scoring, so who's fault was it? Ours. No one else's. If we couid defend and score goals we wouldn't be in the situation we are in.

Agree, Can't have a defense like ours and expect to win

[Jaydog]

We are potentially a better side than Villa but they now have 8 more points than us! How is that possible. The Villa faithful seem to like Dick Emery but based on that game I don’t see a massive improvement. But guess what their defence (and ours) got them 3 points. XG fairness rating of under 50% sums it up

[Orange Box]

You are spot on Barlow, we both stand in the kop & see the shambles unfold before our very eyes, us attendees know the score standing there on tenterhooks, waiting for the next fiasco.

Don't mention Pontus to folk on here, our best CB (along with Ben White) is hated on here. He was shown the door because he was passionate & competitive, also annoyed/angry playing against a Villa team who fell about at will, wasted time & cheated throughout the whole game, only for them to be gifted a goal by Marcelo, one of his most ludicrous decisions I shall never accept. No other coach would have instructed that action.

Pontus was a proper defender, unlike the matchstickmen, we watch every week nowadays.

Great post 64. Well said from someone who does more than talk.
You too BB.

[CHAPELALLMAN]

Our defence has been a shambles for years Leon, not just under Marsch. Not one coach has sorted it out.

It made me smile to read some replies to what you wrote above. People comparing our defence now with the defensive record in the championship years.

A few relevant factors to consider ;

1) You are not going to get punished anything like as much in the Championship for a weak defence, and pace is not such a factor for defenders to possess in the championship the way that it is in the PL. In the PL you will get punished hard for using defenders who lack pace if you play with a pressing style - probably not as much if you play deeper and park the bus more.
2) For part of Bielsa's tenure in the Championship we had Jansson as a CB who Bielsa ( unusually ) named as his best player for his first season in charge.
3) For the other part of Bielsa's tenure in the Championship we had Ben White, who is a far better player than any of our current CBs - certainly better than Llorente or Koch.

And then this narrative that the defensive woes only magically started this season ( a convenient one if you want Marsch out ! )

1) Under Bielsa we played 64 PL matches and conceded 114 goals - with 60 in the 2021-22 season, and which included 7-0 and 6-0 thrashings. This works out at an average of 1.78 goals conceded in the PL under Bielsa's tenure.
2) The CBs that have been used this season under Marsch are the same ones that were used under Bielsa's tenure in the PL ie Llorente, Koch, Struijk and Cooper.
4) So far this season we have conceded 33 goals in 18 matches - an average of 1.83 goals per game - almost identical to Bielsa's defensive stats.
5) Under the two different managers two different marking systems have been used ( man marking and zonal ) and the basic formations are different ie Marsch uses a 4-2-3-1, Bielsa used to start with a 4-1-4-1 - so a single pivot in one system and two pivots in the other. Nonetheless, both managers use a pressing style of play, it's just that their concept of how to press is different.

So therefore I find it hard to understand why people are so dogmatic that it's Marsch's ' system ' which is the root cause of the defensive woes. This seems blinkered to me, and ignores the basic facts. It's ridiculous to make comparisons with defensive records in the championship - it's obviously easier to defend against Championship standard players, plus it was a period when we had CBs such as Jansson and White.

[1corvus1]

Our attacking players must be so piss off with are defense. We can score but we leak goals consistently. I feel sorry for Gnonto he gives his all ever game and the supporters look to him to change the game and he's only eighteen a lot of pressure for a youngster, he's a world beater in the making.

[Kennyb41]

I think i spotted part of what's fcking up the defending last night, or lack of it.

He's trying to instil this hounding the opponent player that has the ball when we lose it, but when they were running back last night the thick fckers seemed to want to be drawn to the player with the ball, leaving other Villa players in acres of space, no fcker is thinking of positioning themselves correctly to intercept any passes, we're all over the fcking shop concentrating on the man with the ball, it's like the basics of defending go out the window, and it's way way too easy to exploit.

That's why we either concede or at least give the opponents a chance on goal every single time.

Imv, what might help is we need a certain amount of defenders to actually bust a gut putting a sprint on ready to have time to turn and face, e.g : That corner last night, at least 3 of them should've been prepared to sprint like it's the 100m dash, you need to re run this goal for Villa and just watch our players faces and running, who are they looking at ? What are they thinking ? and most of all where the fck are they running and positioning themselves, because it most definitely looks like the keystone cops if not the Monty Python sketch of the 100m for people with no sense of direction.

PS being the main culprit.

[velo]

It made me smile to read some replies to what you wrote above. People comparing our defence now with the defensive record in the championship years.

A few relevant factors to consider ;

1) You are not going to get punished anything like as much in the Championship for a weak defence, and pace is not such a factor for defenders to possess in the championship the way that it is in the PL. In the PL you will get punished hard for using defenders who lack pace if you play with a pressing style.

2) For part of Bielsa's tenure in the Championship we had Jansson as a CB who Bielsa unusually named as his best player for his first season in charge.
3) For the other part of Bielsa's tenure in the Championship we had Ben White, who is a far better player than any of our current CBs - certainly better than Llorente or Koch.

And then this narrative that the defensive woes only magically started this season ( a convenient one if you want Marsch out ! )

1) Under Bielsa we played 64 PL matches and conceded 114 goals - with 60 in the 2021-22 season, and which included 7-0 and 6-0 thrashings. This works out at an average of 1.78 goals conceded in the PL under Bielsa's tenure.
2) The CBs that have been used this season under Marsch are the same ones that were played under Bielsa's tenure in the PL ie Llorente, Koch, Struijk and Cooper.
4) So far this season we have conceded 33 goals in 18 matches - an average of 1.83 goals per game - almost identical to Bielsa's defensive stats.
5) Under the two different managers two different marking systems have been used ( man marking and zonal ) and the basic formations are different ie Marsch uses a 4-2-3-1, Bielsa used to start with a 4-1-4-1 - so a single pivot in one system and two pivots in the other.

So therefore I find it hard to understand why people are so dogmatic that it's Marsch's ' system ' which is the root cause of the defensive woes. This seems blinkered to me, and ignores the basic facts. It's ridiculous to make comparisons with defensive records in the championship - it's obviously easier to defend against Championship standard players, plus it was a period when we had CBs such as Jansson and White.

Great post

[Jaydog]

I don’t think it was the only one of our 11 (to nil) corners that we looked vulnerable on. There were at least 2 more.

[Kennyb41]

ffs Chapel, what the fck do you keep insisting on going on about Bert for ???

This is an entirely different defending and gameplan set out by Jesse, we are commenting on the now ffs, comparisons are empty, it just doesn't matter for our current defence situ, Jesses gameplan is all different fer gawds sake.

What the hell do you want the argument about Jesses defence and Berts defence for ?

[Barlow Boy]

So.....you are at every home game, good on you. Who is at fault? Owner, Coach or players.

Probably a combination of all 3 WS, and we can throw in the Director of Football while we are at it.

[CHAPELALLMAN]

ffs Chapel, what the fck do you keep insisting on going on about Bert for ???

This is an entirely different defending and gameplan set out by Jesse, we are commenting on the now ffs, comparisons are empty, it just doesn't matter for our current defence situ, Jesses gameplan is all different fer gawds sake.

What the hell do you want the argument about Jesses defence and Berts defence for ?

Because Weasel bangs on about it constrantly - including comparing Marsch's PL record defensively with the defensive record in the Championship. That's why. You may as well compare an apple with an orange.

And because for a non-biased person it tends to indicate that the defensive woes are down to the limitations of the defenders rather than any system.

[Leeds1000]

I think it will take a slip into the bottom 3 to focus minds.. Board, Jesse & players. It doesn't look like we can do both at the same time defend and attack and the scary part is we don't do either that well. Can you imagine life without Rodrigo at the minute and i never thought i would hear myself say that. The quicker we get the young French lad thru the door the better. I am sure its just the relegation release clause left to sort out.

I'm surprised Marsch said it was our most complete performance, for me it was Chelski by a country mile, everything came together in that game perfectly after the first 10/15mins. I suppose it keeps the Wolves from his door saying that.... He's opened himself up somewhat with that (mcp) comment and i hope for his sake the players can repeat it on a regulars basis cos another slip back to mediocre won't cut it from here on in.

I think Southampton will go, i think Bournemouth will go aswell and i'm sure we will be better than Forest over a season. Nothing to see here then.

[Kennyb41]

Because Weasel bangs on about it constrantly - including comparing Marsch's PL record defensively with the defensive record in the Championship. That's why. You may as well compare an apple with an orange.

And because for a non-biased person it tends to indicate that the defensive woes are down to the limitations of the defenders rather than any system.

But Bert had the shite defenders playing out of their skins from the get go in the Championship right until all the injuries ffs that led to the thrashings.

Just leave it ffs.

[Kennyb41]

Jesus Chapel stop selecting those thrashings as if it was for all the duration of his tenure.

Why don't you think back to that first Stoke 4-1 thrashing that made me sit up and think'''"wtf has he done to these players !!!"

And it continued right up until they were continually swapped and changed about coz he hd way too many changes to make to it all ffs.

[whiteswan]

It's Marsch's defensive weaknesses

Yep

[Barlow Boy]

Aaaaand it all goes back to the training ground...

Btw the legend of Pontus grows... he had his fair share of keystone cop moments too

Of course he did, but when that ball came in from a corner, or defensive free kick, he was pretty much guaranteed to be the first to the ball and head it away. He had a ‘free role’ of course which helped.

We miss that IMO.

[A Tourist]

I'm surprised Marsch said it was our most complete performance, for me it was Chelski by a country mile

I think we a) overestimate how literal he is and b) think he's talking to us instead of the lockerroom. This one's to rally the troops. I still see the belief about the team.

They go the goal down and then dominate. That they didnt score came down to bad luck, some miraculous defending, and about 4 inches of Roddy's shoulder. 2 down? Still fighting. Villa got away with some ridiculous timewasting and took some life out of it, but the belief was there.

[Irish Ian]

So have 3 back then, or 4 considering how s**t we are at defending. That was only the 3rd minute after all. It was significant after that in attack when we had the opportunity we weren’t always exactly flooding the box. And then a couple more of our corners it nearly happened again. There’s a pattern

Once the ball goes to one of their fullbacks we are set up to press.
Once of the front four who press is Aaronsen.
So when the ball broke to Young we had two players out of position as Aaronsen was on halfway.
Do the chaos is self created and leaves us exposed time and time again.

In that case an Amf with mid range marking and tackling skills and a CB playing out of position.

As has been stated that is on the management. Scoring against Leeds is easy because we always leave ourselves exposed, are turned easily and a.low runners unmarked into the danger area.

I think our players are over loaded with information but under trained.

Marsch talks and talks, Bielsa just sent them a couple of videos.

[CHAPELALLMAN]

Once the ball goes to one of their fullbacks we are set up to press.
Once of the front four who press is Aaronsen.
So when the ball broke to Young we had two players out of position as Aaronsen was on halfway.
Do the chaos is self created and leaves us exposed time and time again.

In that case an Amf with mid range marking and tackling skills and a CB playing out of position.

As has been stated that is on the management. Scoring against Leeds is easy because we always leave ourselves exposed, are turned easily and a.low runners unmarked into the danger area.

I think our players are over loaded with information but under trained.

Marsch talks and talks, Bielsa just sent them a couple of videos.

TBF under the previous pressing style with Bielsa there were frequent criticisms that too many players were getting caught high up the pitch, so that when the press was broken we were left hopelessly exposed. We did use to commit a lot of players high up the pitch under Bielsa.

Seems that any type of pressing is by nature a high risk way of playing football, and pacey defenders with great positional awareness are all important if you want to play this way.

[Kennyb41]

Of course it is, other than that we can park the bus.