Liverpool v Leeds United Match Thread

[weasel]

Is that genuinely true though? I am curious.

If you split the season in half has he always got better in the 2nd 23 games than the first?

I'm not sure whether it would be a straight split rather than just slow starts and then picking up momentum.

Season 24/25 2 draws and a defeat in the opening 5 league matches. Plus a cup thrashing by Middlesboro.
Season 23/24 3 draws and a loss from the opening 5 league matches plus a cup loss to Salford. We had just 13 points from the first 9 matches.

With Norwich (Championship)
Season 18/19 4 points from the opening 5 matches before going on to win the title.
Season 20/21 4 points from the opening 4 matches before going on to win the title.

With Norwich (Prem)
Season 19/20 Hard to really say as they only got 21 points in total. They did though lose 3 of their opening 4 matches and were pretty awful. Their best run though was 6 points from 6 matches fron 28th December to 1st February when they had a win and 3 draws. They also won 2 FA Cup matches against Premier League sides in that period. So they started slow, got a bit of momentum but then had a bad run.

Season 21/22 They finished the season on 22 points however Farke was sacked after 11 matches (sacked despite beating Brentford in the 11th match). They started with 6 successuve losses. Then had 2 draws before 2 more defeats and the win against Brentford. So 0 from 6 matches followed by 5 points from 5 matches so again shows an improvment after a poor start. They won 1 and drew 2 immediately after Farke's dismissal which may suggest the team had started to find momentum under Farke (or alternatively had a new manager bounce however as shown their results had already started to improve). They then lost 6 on the bounce with their new manager.

As for half season splits (just did Leeds)

24/25 First 23 matches 48 points. Second 23 matches 52 points.
23/24 First 23 matches 45 points. Second 23 matches 45 points.

So I think the point Ian made is fairly much spot on. He has a record for poor starts to the season but then picking up - albeit perhaps only marginally with Norwich in the Prem. It does suggest though that his players don't down tools but keep playing for him. Perhaps though as we already know his Norwich team were just not premier league standard.

[Irish Ian]

Is that genuinely true though? I am curious.

If you split the season in half has he always got better in the 2nd 23 games than the first?

Im not talking about splitting the season in half.

That is your metric.

Im saying it has taken time for Farke to implement his tactics on new players, or new tactics on established players.

It was obvious this season it would be hard given the step up in the quality of the opposition.

[Irish Ian]

Almost a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. If he'd changed the formation and way we played at the start of the season and we then had a bad start fans would be saying he was stupid to change to a system that the players were unfamiliar with.

Like you said he started both previous seasons with us slowly before building us into a juggernaut. I think the first season under him we simply peaked too soon and us going top when we did was the start of our demise that season. Last season we were relentless and learnt from the season before and held our nerve. He did similar with Norwich, the season he won the title he was under real pressure of the sack early on, espeically after losing 3-0 at home to Bielsa's Leeds side. Yet that side gathered momentum and were relentless. Even in the season when Norwich sacked him he won his last premier league match in charge - who knows what might have happened if they kept him and built momentum.

As for fans saying he doesn't make changes look at how ruthless he was with Piroe. Identified something not working and changed it. He also did make a tactical change to our formation of last year basically getting rid of our number 10 to allow for a more defensive midfield presumably in an effort to make us harder to beat. However despite initial early success we had started leaking goals and not looking like scoring.

I remember when we promoted under Bielsa he was asked on the day of the first game at Liverpool if he would change his approach.

His answer was basically that he would wait and see.

Three games in we had 6 points, scored 8 goals and at that point he probably was happy that we not change too much. The goals were flowing.

At the halfway point we were 11th with 30 goals scored and conceded. He was probably still happy.

This season we began with early season wins and were basically competitive but with no cutting edge.
Not helped by Dan James and early season experiments with Harrison. Even so with points on the board I wonder if Farke thought 4-3-3 was going to be our core set up. Especially if James and Okafor started firing.

I think now we are halfway through our fixtures we are now sufficiently set up for a variety of approaches.

However I did wonder when we brought in Bornauw, Justin and Bilol if 3 at the back had been thought about.

I don't know whether the squad had ever trained that way ahead of City away but it certainly looked like it.

But the main difference is DCL. Keep him fit and Leeds have a great chance.

[Sean_Nile]

All you fans are wrong about me, I play for the manager

Remember when the positive surprise outweighed skepticism, with many fans viewing it as a successful Bielsa masterstroke that turned Berardi into a CB and a cult hero in that position.

He was a positive revelation despite concerns about his height, discipline, and injury history. Some fans viewed it as a risk, citing him as a liability, prone to red cards and not naturally suited to the position.

Fans and managers often disagree... thats the way of the world.

It takes a good manger to find solutiions to problems, and Farke has done that on numerous occasions, so credit where credit is due. Maybe Farke has a team of Berardi's playing for him... or at least that spirit.

[1964white]

Surely you aren't trying to rewrite history to try and point score?

You yourself were very critical of him pre Man City half time as was basically everyone (and most were supportive of the sack).

He deserves credit since but please let's not pretend everyone saw this coming to try and be smug.

He's done well since, hopefully keeps it up.

We all have a wobble now & again.

I've always been pro-Farke, couldn't see the point of replacing him. We've been in that situation previously & a change of manager hasn't resolved or improved our circumstances.

To be fair Cjay, you & others have been calling Farke out for three seasons, even when it was a walk in the park winning the championship last season.

I keep insisting, Farke knows what he is doing.

[Mick Jones elbow]

Rightfully criticised when we've been gash and equally praised for good performances. Exactly what management is about. Long may it continue.

[Tom the Cat]

This has been my issue with it for ages. If your body position determines whether you are offside, then the rules are wrong. If DCL is stood in the same exact spot but has his right leg further back, the goal stands, thats nonsensical.

From what I have read the offside law is to be changed next season when DCL's "goal" would have stood.

[SG90]

I recall most on here felt we could stay up, but we had to change tactics to do so and were unconvinced Farke was willing to drop his stubbornness. So credit to Farke for putting the club before his ego, it's not easy to do, as Bielsa showed previously. However I wonder how much of it was forced due to his job being under threat?

Saying that, we're nowhere near out of the woodwork yet and sides have cottoned on to our set pieces and long throws, so another change up is required once it stops working.

[CHAPELALLMAN]

I recall most on here felt we could stay up, but we had to change tactics to do so and were unconvinced Farke was willing to drop his stubbornness. So credit to Farke for putting the club before his ego, it's not easy to do, as Bielsa showed previously. However I wonder how much of it was forced due to his job being under threat?

Saying that, we're nowhere near out of the woodwork yet and sides have cottoned on to our set pieces and long throws, so another change up is required once it stops working.

I thought we were going to see a repeat of Bielsa with Farke - not able to put his ego to one side for the sake of the club. Remember Bielsa's crazy man marking system, which all the pundits were criticising at the time, as our CBs were being dragged all over the pitch to where the opposition wanted them most....Yet his ego wouldn't allow him to admit that he had got it all wrong, and he made our defensive record in the PL a joke.

Remember those thrashings under Bielsa ? ; Manchester United 6-2 Leeds, Dec 2020, Manchester City 7-0 Leeds, Dec 2021, Liverpool 6-0 Leeds, Feb 2022.

So credit to Farke for swallowing his pride and changing his approach. Could you imagine us suffering those kind of defeats nowadays ?

[Volvo Jack]

Firstly the United Supporters were magnificent. our defence was under pressure throughout the game, a little fortunate at times but earned that
Did think that the substitutions should have ben a little earlier as United began to look more more threatening. I thought Gnonto would have caused them some trouble, even score.

Great Stuff Leeds Bring on the Vermin Sunday.

[Madron]

Bit annoyed by the suggestion that if Ekitike had gone down under the Bijol challenge it would have been a penalty.

If he had gone down it would have been simulation and therefore no penalty and he should have been booked for diving if he did.
Thats cheating.

Fair play to Slot for saying his player did the right thing and he doesn't want his players to pretend, and that others should do the same.

Diving needs to stop, Its ruining the game.

[The Subhuman]

Was that Ampadu chance the best chance of the game?

No, Ekitike's

[The Subhuman]

I recall most on here felt we could stay up, but we had to change tactics to do so and were unconvinced Farke was willing to drop his stubbornness. So credit to Farke for putting the club before his ego, it's not easy to do, as Bielsa showed previously. However I wonder how much of it was forced due to his job being under threat?

Saying that, we're nowhere near out of the woodwork yet and sides have cottoned on to our set pieces and long throws, so another change up is required once it stops working.

Woods

[wilsdenwhite]

I'm not sure whether it would be a straight split rather than just slow starts and then picking up momentum.

Season 24/25 2 draws and a defeat in the opening 5 league matches. Plus a cup thrashing by Middlesboro.
Season 23/24 3 draws and a loss from the opening 5 league matches plus a cup loss to Salford. We had just 13 points from the first 9 matches.

With Norwich (Championship)
Season 18/19 4 points from the opening 5 matches before going on to win the title.
Season 20/21 4 points from the opening 4 matches before going on to win the title.

With Norwich (Prem)
Season 19/20 Hard to really say as they only got 21 points in total. They did though lose 3 of their opening 4 matches and were pretty awful. Their best run though was 6 points from 6 matches fron 28th December to 1st February when they had a win and 3 draws. They also won 2 FA Cup matches against Premier League sides in that period. So they started slow, got a bit of momentum but then had a bad run.

Season 21/22 They finished the season on 22 points however Farke was sacked after 11 matches (sacked despite beating Brentford in the 11th match). They started with 6 successuve losses. Then had 2 draws before 2 more defeats and the win against Brentford. So 0 from 6 matches followed by 5 points from 5 matches so again shows an improvment after a poor start. They won 1 and drew 2 immediately after Farke's dismissal which may suggest the team had started to find momentum under Farke (or alternatively had a new manager bounce however as shown their results had already started to improve). They then lost 6 on the bounce with their new manager.

As for half season splits (just did Leeds)

24/25 First 23 matches 48 points. Second 23 matches 52 points.
23/24 First 23 matches 45 points. Second 23 matches 45 points.

So I think the point Ian made is fairly much spot on. He has a record for poor starts to the season but then picking up - albeit perhaps only marginally with Norwich in the Prem. It does suggest though that his players don't down tools but keep playing for him. Perhaps though as we already know his Norwich team were just not premier league standard.

Farke is better equipped this time around with Leeds player-wise than he ever was with Norwich. I wouldn't say much better equipped, just better. I don't read too much in to the slow starting business tbh.

I suppose my analogy of a Big Mac will have to do for now.. All he had at Norwich was a burger (Pukki) and a bun (Buendia). With us he has 2 burgers, a bun, bread in the middle and some salad but he is still missing the gherkins and Big Mac sauce. He is doing absolutely fine for now with what he has and our fine run only suggests what he might do with all the ingredients in place. I'm sure more job security and backing from the team above will get him the chance to show us all his capabilities long term.

[Cjay]

We all have a wobble now & again.

I've always been pro-Farke, couldn't see the point of replacing him. We've been in that situation previously & a change of manager hasn't resolved or improved our circumstances.

To be fair Cjay, you & others have been calling Farke out for three seasons, even when it was a walk in the park winning the championship last season.

I keep insisting, Farke knows what he is doing.

I wasn't objecting to you supporting Farke.

I objected to the eye roll.

You have generally supported Farke but you have had your own wobbles.

Nobody saw this coming.

[Cjay]

I'm not sure whether it would be a straight split rather than just slow starts and then picking up momentum.

Season 24/25 2 draws and a defeat in the opening 5 league matches. Plus a cup thrashing by Middlesboro.
Season 23/24 3 draws and a loss from the opening 5 league matches plus a cup loss to Salford. We had just 13 points from the first 9 matches.

With Norwich (Championship)
Season 18/19 4 points from the opening 5 matches before going on to win the title.
Season 20/21 4 points from the opening 4 matches before going on to win the title.

With Norwich (Prem)
Season 19/20 Hard to really say as they only got 21 points in total. They did though lose 3 of their opening 4 matches and were pretty awful. Their best run though was 6 points from 6 matches fron 28th December to 1st February when they had a win and 3 draws. They also won 2 FA Cup matches against Premier League sides in that period. So they started slow, got a bit of momentum but then had a bad run.

Season 21/22 They finished the season on 22 points however Farke was sacked after 11 matches (sacked despite beating Brentford in the 11th match). They started with 6 successuve losses. Then had 2 draws before 2 more defeats and the win against Brentford. So 0 from 6 matches followed by 5 points from 5 matches so again shows an improvment after a poor start. They won 1 and drew 2 immediately after Farke's dismissal which may suggest the team had started to find momentum under Farke (or alternatively had a new manager bounce however as shown their results had already started to improve). They then lost 6 on the bounce with their new manager.

As for half season splits (just did Leeds)

24/25 First 23 matches 48 points. Second 23 matches 52 points.
23/24 First 23 matches 45 points. Second 23 matches 45 points.

So I think the point Ian made is fairly much spot on. He has a record for poor starts to the season but then picking up - albeit perhaps only marginally with Norwich in the Prem. It does suggest though that his players don't down tools but keep playing for him. Perhaps though as we already know his Norwich team were just not premier league standard.

It seems to very much depend on where you split it though tbf.

Rather than just a yep his teams get better over the season.

So if you split it in half its a 50/50 basically.

50% yes for us 50% yes for Norwich and no for Mönchengladbach.

Or if you do the 1st 2 months then do the ending same total games.

1st season no
2nd yes
3rd no
4th no
5th n/a
Mönchengladbach no
1st us no
2nd yes

But as you say on your smaller sample sizes it seems to favour a yes.

It would seem his best form tends to favour the middle?

[SG90]

Woods

True.

What annoys me is had we made these changes in Oct, like most on here had suggested, we'd be in Sunderland's position now and have no relegation worries.

[Cjay]

True.

What annoys me is had we made these changes in Oct, like most on here had suggested, we'd be in Sunderland's position now and have no relegation worries.

That's a fair point.

Better late than never though.

But why take so long?

Speaking of Sunderland the AFCON doesn't seem to have done them much harm either, not lost a game since it started.

[The Subhuman]

True.

What annoys me is had we made these changes in Oct, like most on here had suggested, we'd be in Sunderland's position now and have no relegation worries.

I know Farke has it in him to change tactics, he did it for the final 5 last season. For me it's less about the formation but the balance using the right players for whatever formation we go with. Still not there yet as last night showed, Sunderland had the quality and attitude to go at City despite the Afcon players missing, we went very defensive and barely left our own half.

[weasel]

No, Ekitike's

Stach's chance near the end was a pretty decent chance too. Falling onto his right foot about 10 yards out he really should have gotten that on target and with the power he has I think if he gets it on target he scores.